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Why Don't High SINAD Receivers Exist?

Vincentponcet

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It is not. 7.1 LPCM from the Bluray player. TrueHD (decoded in the player), yes. Atmos: no.

With blu-ray as source, it sounds simpler to use a PC with multi-channel USB DAC like okto DAC8pro or any pro music sound Interface and use JRiver or PowerDVD as software.
 

rhollan

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With blu-ray as source, it sounds simpler to use a PC with multi-channel USB DAC like okto DAC8pro or any pro music sound Interface and use JRiver or PowerDVD as software.
It is, but I was looking to do Dirac Live processing, and, at the time, the best route was either a pair of minidsp nanoAVRs (the first for bass management) or a DDRC-88D. A nanoAVR-DL came up on Ebay, so that set the course for me.

Furthermore, Bluray playback on PC (at least under Linux) was sketchy at the time and I did not want to use Windows. I still keep an eye on PC-based players and multichannel Dirac VST plugins, but again, the latter work only on Windows or Mac AFAIK.

I do have a 1RU piece of kit that can accommodate an Intel NUC and external 4k Bluray and hard drive if that route proves practical. (Pics attached. It was not cheap: $150 or so for a bit of metal shipped from Britain) The Bluray drive is also amenable to Bluray ripping. Furthermore, the miniDSP nanoAVRs have two HDMI inputs so driving either of them from a PC running JRiver is a possibility for external Dirac Live processing. I am a fan of PC based solutions but as 4k BD ripping or even playback is hit or miss I wanted a conventional player in the mix.
 

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rhollan

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If you don’t feel the need to sit in the middle, then no wonder you reckon there are a lot of ‘purists’ out there. ;)
Oh. LOL. The back of that seat pulls down for cup holders. I DO prefer to sit in the sweet spot, but off-axis response of the 520s is good enough that it matters little for movies. Line arrays are rather like that.
 

abdo123

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I think people are ignoring how expensive chasing SINAD is. Amplifiers that break the 100 SINAD are usually almost 1000$ per monoblock.

To build a 7.1 channel Receiver with Hypex NC400 you’re looking at over 5000$ just for parts and materials.
 

rhollan

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I think people are ignoring how expensive chasing SINAD is. Amplifiers that break the 100 SINAD are usually almost 1000$ per monoblock.

To build a 7.1 channel Receiver with Hypex NC400 you’re looking at over 5000$ just for parts and materials.
True, but not so bad if one limits one's self to LCR for the better SINAD figures.

There is a Purifi-based 7 channel amp for around $5k, IIRC. Ah yes! The NAD M28: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...8-seven-channel-power-amplifier-review.15939/ Reaches about 98 dB SINAD at 5W. The Hypex-based M27 is a tad better and some $400 - $600 cheaper.
 

abdo123

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rhollan

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It's 5k without even any typical AVR functionalities.
Well yes: it's an amp. I don't think you will find an AVR with SINAD figures that good. Heck, it's hard enough to find a pre/pro with figures that good.

My big beef with AVRs is that they concentrate on amplifying the main channels, when they would be ideal for amplifying the surround ones with decent preamp outputs for better amps on the mains. IOW, the channels of amplification they provide should be fully configurable.
 

3dbinCanada

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Well yes: it's an amp. I don't think you will find an AVR with SINAD figures that good. Heck, it's hard enough to find a pre/pro with figures that good.

My big beef with AVRs is that they concentrate on amplifying the main channels, when they would be ideal for amplifying the surround ones with decent preamp outputs for better amps on the mains. IOW, the channels of amplification they provide should be fully configurable.

Most manufacturers top 3 models provide preouts for all channels and a lot of people have separate amps for the 3 front channels while the AVRs power the surround channels. Im fortunate that none of my rooms were so big that I would tax the power of my AVRs.
 

Vincentponcet

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Most manufacturers top 3 models provide preouts for all channels and a lot of people have separate amps for the 3 front channels while the AVRs power the surround channels. Im fortunate that none of my rooms were so big that I would tax the power of my AVRs.

But still not SOTA DACs.
I read that having digital output on an AVR is forbidden by HDMI licenses but storm audio and JBL does that on their super expensive boxes.
The storm audio isp mk2 is sold 18ke with digital outs, the JBL sdp-75 is at 24ke, those prices are crazy.

When you see AVR with DAC/amp and dirac live for 1.5k€ like nad t758v3, it is sad to not have a box without DAC and without amps but just AES/EBU output for even less.

I hope, one day, someone will publish an hack of the cheapest avr with dirac like the nad to have digital outputs.
 

ShadowFiend

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High SINAD receivers don't exist because the manufacturer can't produce them without super high prices or financial loss.

To have high SINAD the whole chain from DAC module - Amplifier module must have high SINAD. Considering the normal AVRs right now have at least 10 channels, which means they need at least a 8-channel-DAC chip and a 2-channel-DAC chip. The high SINAD 8-channel-DAC chip is expensive. For example, the ES9028Pro cost around 15 USD per chip in large supply. Compare to that, the cost-effective ones like AK4458 cost at most 2.5 USD in large supply. That is more than 500%. In addition, you need quality circuit around to retain that high SINAD quality of DAC chip, and it costs more both in R&D and manufacturing. Can the AVR companies tolerate that kind of cost when they are paying exodus amount of money for licensing from HDMI, Dolby, DTS, Room Correction...? I don't think so.

More difficult problem is amplifier. Most audio engineer in AVR company can design decent class AB amplifier module for 8 Ohm load, but achieving the high SINAD amplifier with 4 Ohm load is not trivial task. You either increase the complexity of design or/and raise the amount of output transistor. Both of them is a red for manufacturer as it increase the difficulty in producing, maintaining and cost (heatsink, heat management for 8-10 channel module, not 2 channel in stereo). Buying good OEM class D or licensing them (NAD) for AVR is an option, but cost is much higher than using the not-so-good in-house design.

In the end, money talks
 

Frank Dernie

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I wish people would do a few simple experiments themselves to get a feel for what sound is like for them, both in frequency and in volume.
I am amazed how few people seem to realise how high a note 3kHz is, and how small a range of loudness most music is.
Play a few tones on the stereo. Try turning the volume up and down to get a feel of how big a volume change you can hear on your stereo.
Then it will probably be clear why there aren't any high SINAD receivers.
Nobody needs them, or lives in a house quiet enough with big enough speakers to hear the difference if it existed.
It is true that the range of a human's hearing is around 120dB but, depending on how long you listened to 120db it will be minutes/hours/days/never before you could sense 0dB, so the idea of having a device capable of both may have some slight technical interest but is in fact completely pointless.
This is my opinion, of course, but culled from experiments I have carried out.
Even cd level of SINAD is w-a-y beyond both anything I could hear experimentally and anything I have seen in a music recording.

So I don't fret about it myself.
 

3dbinCanada

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But still not SOTA DACs.
I read that having digital output on an AVR is forbidden by HDMI licenses but storm audio and JBL does that on their super expensive boxes.
The storm audio isp mk2 is sold 18ke with digital outs, the JBL sdp-75 is at 24ke, those prices are crazy.

When you see AVR with DAC/amp and dirac live for 1.5k€ like nad t758v3, it is sad to not have a box without DAC and without amps but just AES/EBU output for even less.

I hope, one day, someone will publish an hack of the cheapest avr with dirac like the nad to have digital outputs.

I wonder if Storm and JBL are breaking copywrite laws.
 

3dbinCanada

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I wish people would do a few simple experiments themselves to get a feel for what sound is like for them, both in frequency and in volume.
I am amazed how few people seem to realise how high a note 3kHz is, and how small a range of loudness most music is.
Play a few tones on the stereo. Try turning the volume up and down to get a feel of how big a volume change you can hear on your stereo.
Then it will probably be clear why there aren't any high SINAD receivers.
Nobody needs them, or lives in a house quiet enough with big enough speakers to hear the difference if it existed.
It is true that the range of a human's hearing is around 120dB but, depending on how long you listened to 120db it will be minutes/hours/days/never before you could sense 0dB, so the idea of having a device capable of both may have some slight technical interest but is in fact completely pointless.
This is my opinion, of course, but culled from experiments I have carried out.
Even cd level of SINAD is w-a-y beyond both anything I could hear experimentally and anything I have seen in a music recording.

So I don't fret about it myself.

Agreed. Not required for most home applications.
 

rhollan

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Most manufacturers top 3 models provide preouts for all channels and a lot of people have separate amps for the 3 front channels while the AVRs power the surround channels. Im fortunate that none of my rooms were so big that I would tax the power of my AVRs.
Yes, but I would like to reasign the three front amps in that case. Or, at least two of them for Atmos duty. I suppose this leaves more power for the remaining ones but still strikes me as wasteful. Usually only preamp outputs are available for height channels. Then again the whole issue of this thread comes up: poor SINAD in receivers.

Basically I lament the lack of a digital connection between processor and outboard DACs for individually decoded channels. Certainly HDMI with HDCP could secure it (and dejittering would likely be a must). We can jury-rig this for up to 7.1 but no further.
 

rhollan

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I wish people would do a few simple experiments themselves to get a feel for what sound is like for them, both in frequency and in volume.
I am amazed how few people seem to realise how high a note 3kHz is, and how small a range of loudness most music is.
Play a few tones on the stereo. Try turning the volume up and down to get a feel of how big a volume change you can hear on your stereo.
Then it will probably be clear why there aren't any high SINAD receivers.
Nobody needs them, or lives in a house quiet enough with big enough speakers to hear the difference if it existed.
It is true that the range of a human's hearing is around 120dB but, depending on how long you listened to 120db it will be minutes/hours/days/never before you could sense 0dB, so the idea of having a device capable of both may have some slight technical interest but is in fact completely pointless.
This is my opinion, of course, but culled from experiments I have carried out.
Even cd level of SINAD is w-a-y beyond both anything I could hear experimentally and anything I have seen in a music recording.

So I don't fret about it myself.
I try not to, and truth be told my theater with 75 dB SINAD Crown amps sounds amazing. Still, swapping out an old Lucid 8824 DAC for an Okto DAC8 PRO gets me from 85 dB SINAD at that point in the chain to 118 dB. For just a little north of $1000? Take my money, please! A Benchmark AHB2 for the fronts and I will be happy. Granted: no Atmos and strictly 48 kHz sampling. I try to tell myself 48 kHz is enough, with any decent resampling DAC. Sanity says a Monoprice HTP-1 will be "enough" of a better improvement, with Atmos (and eARC) and at the same price (sans 2 ch amp). But, I continue to bristle at the lack of freedom to choose my own DACs.

This gets me back to setting things up into a 2 channel system and a separate theater. Then, do I want processing in the 2ch system or a 2.1 or 2.2 layout? Heck, a Parasound Halo P7 would let me switch independent 7.1 channel signals... But it is expensive for the sucky SINAD it offers. At one point I considered digitizing the output of the first 8 channels of an Atmos processor and making a digital HT bypass.
 

Frank Dernie

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I try not to, and truth be told my theater with 75 dB SINAD Crown amps sounds amazing. Still, swapping out an old Lucid 8824 DAC for an Okto DAC8 PRO gets me from 85 dB SINAD at that point in the chain to 118 dB. For just a little north of $1000? Take my money, please! A Benchmark AHB2 for the fronts and I will be happy. Granted: no Atmos and strictly 48 kHz sampling. I try to tell myself 48 kHz is enough, with any decent resampling DAC. Sanity says a Monoprice HTP-1 will be "enough" of a better improvement, with Atmos (and eARC) and at the same price (sans 2 ch amp). But, I continue to bristle at the lack of freedom to choose my own DACs.

This gets me back to setting things up into a 2 channel system and a separate theater. Then, do I want processing in the 2ch system or a 2.1 or 2.2 layout? Heck, a Parasound Halo P7 would let me switch independent 7.1 channel signals... But it is expensive for the sucky SINAD it offers. At one point I considered digitizing the output of the first 8 channels of an Atmos processor and making a digital HT bypass.
It is your time and your money :)
I have had a system with Oppo 105 into Parasound Halo P7 (its sucky sinad isn't sucky enough to notice btw) to speakers which was fine but fancied Audyssey so got a Pre-Pro with it.
Easier to use, though I won't change anything now, probably, I have been optimising for 50 years and it sounds satisfactory to me now.
I don't watch many films and from an overall sound pov if I were to change anything I would go back to stereo with Genelec 8351Bs on top of W371 bass units behind some sort of audibly transparent screen so I couldn't see them...
 

Vincentponcet

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It's 5k without even any typical AVR functionalities.

Add okta dac8, ~1.5k$, add just the processor of a nad t758v3, that should cost less than 1k and for ~7.5k$, you have 118db as for the dac part and 108db for the amp with buffer bypass , much better than the systems sold 30k$.
 

rhollan

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Add okta dac8, ~1.5k$, add just the processor of a nad t758v3, that should cost less than 1k and for ~7.5k$, you have 118db as for the dac part and 108db for the amp with buffer bypass , much better than the systems sold 30k$.
The t753v3 is 5.1.2. I'd prefer 7.1.4. But I still fail to see how I would integrate it's 5.1 bed channels.

You can't just treat the Atmos channels as "extra". Everything added to an Atmos channel is removed, to some degree, from a bed channel. That's how Dolby TrueHD works. It starts with a stereo mix and successively removes the mixed-in channels. Second level: center and sub, Third: surrounds. Fourth: height. DTS-X is similar. Atmos is not 7.1 "plus" more: it is a DIFFERENT 7.1 and more.
 
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Sprint

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No worries. I dont consider it a down grade at all as I really like the sound of the towers without the correction. I also configured to play with sub setting the towers to small but without room correction for classical music containing lots of pipe organ as my towers cant reach that depth. For movies, I do use room correction and sub.
How do you do that.? I have a yamaha rx-v775. I use genelec active monitors as surround set up and 2 svs 12 inch subs. For both movies and stereo i do not want eq ana yamaha’s room correction but want to pass low freq under 80hz to svs subs. I have set genelecs as small and use Through to by pass Eq. I use genelec glm for room correction which is then stored in speakers itself. I just want avr to pass 80hz and below to svs subs. Is there any other way you do it? Btw, have you compared your avr with any denon 2020 avr models like 3700 or 4700? If yes, what does the sound comparison look like?
 
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