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The difference between good and great

TimVG

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I've been pondering over this question for a while now

Being quite familiar (for a person without a background in audio from a technical pov) with the known research, obviously we want to tick all the boxes. Neutral direct sound, excellent directivity properties, lack of resonances, lack of distortion, etc.. The whole package.

What makes good and what makes great I wonder? "It depends" is very likely the answer, as with most things.
Without quoting specific posts. I've read (sometimes heated) discussions over budget loudspeakers with good measurements sounding less good than more expensive models with similar numbers, to which distortion is often brought up. On the other hand, we've also had (sometimes heated) arguments about that aspect when a loudspeakers with non-exemplary distortion numbers is perceived as audibly good, or great even. While sighted bias is often a factor, this is not always the case.

Another recent example, to which we're still awaiting Amir's review, is the JBL 4349. Harman's spinorama was posted in the thread, and while good, on paper it's not spectacular. Yet it would seem odd to me, that they would release a loudspeaker in this price range that didn't go through the blind test protocol. We weren't dazzled with the numbers however.

The Revel Salon2, while producing excellent measurements, technically speaking has been surpassed by several models from Revel themselves, as well as other manufacturers. I've yet to hear to read about anyone not favoring the Salon2 compared to those other Revel models though, apart Harman marketing.

Have any of you ever had experiences where the, technically speaking, better loudspeaker left you less satisfied in a direct comparison, and that beyond suspicion, there are no hard facts as to why this is? Or have the listening experiences always followed suit.

Where exactly are we with regards to the research? What have those +100 measurements and reviews told us so far?
 

MDAguy

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in the end it's what your ears, eyes, nose, and conscience tells you...

I have a set of requirement that many others don't share..

whereas audio science is objective, taste is completely SUBjective.. speakers are probably the most subjective of all electronics components in a system.
 

MDAguy

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Let's assume for sake of argument people with normal hearing prefer a neutral sound, which is what the research tells us.

I for one LOVE the sound of my 81dB sensitivity 3-way "bookshelf" speakers.... but I have had more than one "Audiophile" tell me they're crappy...
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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personally, I don't think there's nearly as much real difference between most speakers as we like to think there is. Once you reach a certain reasonable level of performance, and as long as we're talking about speakers in the same category (bookshelf, floor stander, etc) and set up/EQ'd for the room, I'd bet which set sounds better would depend as much on track selection as anything else.
 
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TimVG

TimVG

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I for one LOVE the sound of my 81dB sensitivity 3-way "bookshelf" speakers.... but I have had more than one "Audiophile" tell me they're crappy...

From the looks of them, I don't see why they couldn't sound and perform potentially nice. MTM config with two very small mids coupled to a what looks like a 6 or 8 inch woofer.
 

MDAguy

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From the looks of them, I don't see why they couldn't sound and perform potentially nice. MTM config with two very small mids coupled to a what looks like a 6 or 8 inch woofer.

the bass response is beyond amazing... I have heard inexpensive floor speakers that don't hold a candle to them... but that's just me!
 
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TimVG

TimVG

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personally, I don't think there's nearly as much real difference between most speakers as we like to think there is. Once you reach a certain reasonable level of performance, and as long as we're talking about speakers in the same category (bookshelf, floor stander, etc) and set up/EQ'd for the room, I'd bet which set sounds better would depend as much on track selection as anything else.

While I tend to agree on the one hand, on the other hand I've had plenty of good sound and similarly measuring speakers sound more different than I would have expected from the measurements alone, even when matched in the bass range.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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The problem is that while we know what measurements are correlated with better sound, we don't know how they all fit together and which ones are the most important when comparing speakers.

The Revel Salon2 and F328Be are both superior according to different metrics. The F328Be is flatter, has better integrated crossovers, and appears to have smoother directivity. The Salon2 has better bass extension and wider directivity out to about 9kHz. The Salon2 might still be preferred based on those factors alone.

Bear in mind that very few people have heard the Salon2 and F328Be in a blind comparison. Jim Garrett said the Salon2 is better in a previous interview but said the F328Be is better in the new interview. Even he admits that the Salon2 still has its strengths.

There is a similar problem with display devices when it comes to picture quality. We know that resolution, brightness, contrast, color volume, color accuracy, refresh rate, etc. are all factors in picture quality. However, we know that contrast is the most important when everything else is close enough. We generally have a good idea of the order of importance of these different factors of picture quality. For speakers I don't believe it is as clear which factors are most important and when.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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While I tend to agree on the one hand, on the other hand I've had plenty of good sound and similarly measuring speakers sound more different than I would have expected from the measurements alone, even when matched in the bass range.

Oh for sure. But I have this notion that if you set the speakers up for the room, volume match them and hide them behind a divider, and then have people choose their preferences...the outcome would likely have little to do with measurements, price or what not and would depend more on the tracks chosen for the testing...
 

Bugal1998

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Charles Sprinkle commented that spin-o-rama measurements and their relationship to listener preference was simply the lowest-hanging fruit in the quest to identify objective measurements that explain subjective preference... But the research needed to begin somewhere, and in-room frequency response, resonances, and timber which can all be identified with the spin-o-rama data set was the logical starting point, but by no means exhaustive.

I also believe it's a mistaken view by some that objective measurements are all that's needed. Clearly not even Harman believes this given the great effort/expense Harman puts into collecting high quality subjective data via controlled double-blind listening tests.

I'm watching to see what/where the next breakthroughs in objectively quantifying loudspeaker performance will be.
 

MDAguy

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It's the difference between Bach and everything else.

best response of the tread for sure! Although, not as prolific, I've always favored Vivaldi by just a little bit.
 

Robin L

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best response of the tread for sure! Although, not as prolific, I've always favored Vivaldi by just a little bit.
Vivaldi's fun listening. Bach is deeper than the deepest ocean.
 

watchnerd

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Another recent example, to which we're still awaiting Amir's review, is the JBL 4349. Harman's spinorama was posted in the thread, and while good, on paper it's not spectacular. Yet it would seem odd to me, that they would release a loudspeaker in this price range that didn't go through the blind test protocol. We weren't dazzled with the numbers however.

Normal people are swayed a lot by looks and marketing.

If the JBL 4349 spins are "good enough", there is no need to waste engineering money to make it even better if it won't lead to a big increase in sales.

Why invest extra R&D dollars to make it closer to perfect if it won't make more profit?

Better, instead, to spend that investment elsewhere to increase sales -- more marketing, better wood, etc.
 

imagidominc

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I can inject some numbers into this. If someone says any of these words, I just transform it into a numerical value. It works both ways.
10= Perfect
9= Fantastic
8= Great
7= Good
6= Decent
5= Okay
4= Poor
3= Bad
2= Broken
1= Trash
0= Harmful to humanity

The difference between good and great is only 1 point away to me, so it doesn't really make that big a difference to me. Good works for most.
 
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