Sony NW-WM1A Review (Digital Audio Player)

[amirm]

2/3 of the game console industry...

They draw heavily from US software engineering even though the companies are HQ in Japan. Nintendo for example has a big office here and a lot of the code for the platform was developed in this office. I have lost track of Sony but I am sure they have a lot of US engineers contributing to its platform here.

 

[Redcarmoose]

This guy obviously came in to add links to another forum (head-fi, to which I belong as well) to drive traffic there, so that people will read about the Sony there instead of here. This is often done when another forum (in our case, ASR) gets regularly indexed by Google bots.

I suggest that Redcarmoose’s posts in this thread be deleted because they don’t add anything constructive and apparently were planted to divert readers from this forum to head-fi.

I simply wound not want a person to pass up the 1A over simple phone listening that's all.

Diverting traffic?lol

 

[PeteL]

Name me a successful Japanese software product or a consumer product that relies on software.

i can’t, not on the top of my head, but so is the case for pretty much all countries but the USA? Maybe I don’t get what you are saying exactly. we are on an audio forum, here? are we talking about this? What I get from your argument, is that Japan. used to own the audio industry, that would be correct, and they lost that status, that is also correct, up to that point I’m following, and agree, now now, that the cause of that fall is poor UI? Do we agree that the biggest player in the audio Industry now would be...Not sure about this, but Harman, owned by samsung would be high up there? have they reach that Status because software? I don’t disagree that the line between data , software and consumer electronics, are somewhat connected and blurred at the same time, and someone that own all three is likely to be huge at all three, and none of that is from Japan, if this is the point you want to make, I agree. but there are a lot of places they are not from right? I’m trying to grasp what’s specific about japan in this reasoning.

 

[amirm]

What I get from your argument, is that Japan. used to own the audio industry, that would be correct, and they lost that status, that is also correct, up to that point I’m following, and agree, now now, that the cause of that fall is poor UI?

It is fair to say that there is no usability work like is done at Apple, Microsoft, etc. Designs come straight from engineers and shipped. Who else would think saying "building database..." is a good idea in the UI of this player?

My last few years at Microsoft was spent trying to get the Asian audio companies to build portable players that were competitive with Apple's iPod. None including Sony could remotely come close to that standard. They would keep telling us they had Apple iPod "killers" but in one look, and one touch you could tell that they were not even playing the same game.

I use to run the usability lab for all of Microsoft. This was a huge team, with tons of video equipped rooms with one sided mirrors where would hire 100+ people to come and comment on just one product release. The team was booked all the time and produced incredible feedback. Such things simple do not exist in Japanese and other Asian companies. Any wonder then that Apple grew so strong against them, not only in portable player but then phones?

 

[witchdoctor]

I probably sound like a lunatic here. This madman shows up out of no where and is drooling..........foaming from the mouth?


Well why?


I simply would not want someone to miss the 1A experience........even now. It's simply sharing the love of audio. But maybe more than that? The cause.........the cause is the single greatest motivator for man. It's an audiophile cause. And it's nothing personal to the author? Not at all. It's simply correcting one viewpoint with another persons view.

OK, I get it, you want to share your experience. Why not past a review that you write highlighting why you like it? Send it to a lab and get third party measurments, it won't be that expensive.

 

[witchdoctor]

It is fair to say that there is no usability work like is done at Apple, Microsoft, etc. Designs come straight from engineers and shipped. Who else would think saying "building database..." is a good idea in the UI of this player?

My last few years at Microsoft was spent trying to get the Asian audio companies to build portable players that were competitive with Apple's iPod. None including Sony could remotely come close to that standard. They would keep telling us they had Apple iPod "killers" but in one look, and one touch you could tell that they were not even playing the same game.

I use to run the usability lab for all of Microsoft. This was a huge team, with tons of video equipped rooms with one sided mirrors where would hire 100+ people to come and comment on just one product release. The team was booked all the time and produced incredible feedback. Such things simple do not exist in Japanese and other Asian companies. Any wonder then that Apple grew so strong against them, not only in portable player but then phones?

I disagree. I think Toyota may not be perfect but the "Kaizen" consciousness and customer focus is exemplary. As for MSFT look at the stock price during the Ballmer years, "Vista", "Bing", "Zune", the Nokia acquisition. not exactly category killers right? Satya is much different and now they have turned it around, but just look at their stock during the Ballmer years and that kind of says it all about the "customer experiece" IMO.

I think to take a broadside at all Asian based companies by claiming " Such things simple do not exist in Japanese and other Asian companies."
needs to be supported by some statistic or you should retract that statement.

 

[Redcarmoose]

OK, I get it, you want to share your experience. Why not past a review that you write highlighting why you like it? Send it to a lab and get third party measurments, it won't be that expensive.

I don't really need to write a review, as the player has 1000s who view it as better than a phone. Why would I measure something that subjectively appears close to perfect? You or anyone has 40,000 pages of love poems to read at Head-Fi.....though such written ideas may not be the goal of this forum. I get the goals of this forum and hold them as valuable and of needed importance in the world of audio.

Written perspectives on products are often flawed, my written reviews on products are very flawed. The review at this site is missing at least 20 hours of subjective listening with handfuls of IEMs and headphones. If it had more research I could accept the subjective listening opinions as an added user model in such an opinionated review. The review here is far from complete.

 

[witchdoctor]

I don't really need to write a review, as the player has 1000s who view it as better than a phone. Why would I measure something that subjectively appears close to perfect? You or anyone has 40,000 pages of love poems to read at Head-Fi.....though such written ideas may not be the goal of this forum. I get the goals of this forum and hold them as valuable and of needed importance in the world of audio.

Written perspectives on products are often flawed, my written reviews on products are very flawed. The review at this site is missing at least 20 hours of subjective listening with handfuls of IEMs and headphones. If it had more research I could accept the subjective listening opinions as an added user model in such an opinionated review. The review here is far from complete.

You should do it because of your passion, that's all.

 

[maverickronin]

They draw heavily from US software engineering even though the companies are HQ in Japan. Nintendo for example has a big office here and a lot of the code for the platform was developed in this office. I have lost track of Sony but I am sure they have a lot of US engineers contributing to its platform here.

Well obviously it's not all in Japan. They're multinational corporations, the US is just as big a market if not bigger for them, and games take a lot more localization than most other forms of software, but they are still Japanese companies/divisions with software as their primary product.

My last few years at Microsoft was spent trying to get the Asian audio companies to build portable players that were competitive with Apple's iPod. None including Sony could remotely come close to that standard. They would keep telling us they had Apple iPod "killers" but in one look, and one touch you could tell that they were not even playing the same game.

I've never understood why some people are so infatuated with Apple's GUIs.

The best ever interface I've ever seen on a DAP was the Rio Karma. It had the best sorting, navigation, and input methods. I used to be able to queue up my favorite albums without even looking at the screen from just counting button presses and detents on the scroll wheel.

From a feature standpoint, no DAP firmware comes close to Rockbox. It's chock full features - things that should obviously be mandatory on any DAP yet are surprisingly missing from a large number, and things that are less obvious, but that you can never live without once you've used them.

 

[amirm]

I disagree. I think Toyota may not be perfect but the "Kaizen" consciousness and customer focus is exemplary. As for MSFT look at the stock price during the Ballmer years, "Vista", "Bing", "Zune", the Nokia acquisition. not exactly category killers right? Satya is much different and now they have turned it around, but just look at their stock during the Ballmer years and that kind of says it all about the "customer experiece" IMO.

Nothing in what you post has to do with the topic of UI design. A product fails or succeed for many reasons beyond its user interface.

Remember, I worked for Sony for years and did so at Microsoft. I interacted with every consumer electronics company trying to get them to compete with Apple on audio players. This is what I did for a living. Please don't counter this experience with looking at the tea leaves through stock price and such.

I guarantee you this: an Apple or Microsoft UI designer would rather have a heart attack than be associated with the UI on this Sony player or any other. Zune's UI was superb compared to stuff we are talking about here. Here is a quick snippet of reviews for Zune HD:

The words I have highlighted won't remotely be used to describe what we are seeing in these DAPs. I had to look up the manual just to figure out how to put the thing in DAC mode. First hit back, then hit suitcase, then hit "DAC" then answer a question on turning on or off then DAC. Then the "database building" shows up even though it did that when you hooked it up to the PC!

I should say I was NOT responsible for Zune. I gave them my team for them to develop the software. They had their own hardware people they borrowed from Xbox team. Every decision they made was wrong in my opinion (including getting into media player business at all). But right is right and their user interface was designed by people who understood user interface design.

Bing has no interface to talk about so not sure what that is doing there. And Vista followed the Windows scheme. If it was as bad as the OS in most phones of the era, it would gotten killed years earlier.

 

[Billy Budapest]

I've never understood why some people are so infatuated with Apple's GUIs.

I think people are infatuated with Apple’s OS GUIs because they are simple and functional, and beautiful in their simplicity. Plus they are widely copied—the basic Android GUI is essentially the same as the iOS GUI, and a lot of cross-pollination of user interface concepts has happened among both OS’s for years.

But Apple’s application GUI’s? Those are an entirely different story. Feature creep has destroyed the usability of most of them. Apple doesn’t seem to follow its own user interface guidelines much of the time.

 

[Billy Budapest]

But right is right and their user interface was designed by people who understood user interface design.

The Zune UI was beautiful but when its design language was festooned onto Windows Media Player, it did not translate well onto the desktop.

Plus that doo doo brown color was probably not properly focus grouped.

As far as the Zune hardware, wasn’t that originally developed by Toshiba?

 

[amirm]

Plus that doo doo brown color was probably not properly focus grouped.

I was told at the time that "brown was the 'in' color." They probably paid $50K to a branding company to tell them that. Like I said, they made many mistakes.

 

[witchdoctor]

Well obviously it's not all in Japan. They're multinational corporations, the US is just as big a market if not bigger for them, and games take a lot more localization than most other forms of software, but they are still Japanese companies/divisions with software as their primary product.



I've never understood why some people are so infatuated with Apple's GUIs.

The best ever interface I've ever seen on a DAP was the Rio Karma. It had the best sorting, navigation, and input methods. I used to be able to queue up my favorite albums without even looking at the screen from just counting button presses and detents on the scroll wheel.

From a feature standpoint, no DAP firmware comes close to Rockbox. It's chock full features - things that should obviously be mandatory on any DAP yet are surprisingly missing from a large number, and things that are less obvious, but that you can never live without once you've used them.

First of all I take no issues with your review, it was a claim you made, "Such things simple do not exist in Japanese and other Asian companies. ".
Really? That is a gem I didn't know before, do you have a link to share with some type of statistic? I'll leave DAP interfaces to the users preference and if a "bad" interface sells a lot of units I'm OK with that. You don't like the android interface on a DAP that's OK. I love the android interface because I can install apps for Mixcloud, Wolfgangs Lair, my DTS Play-Fi app for whole house music, my apps to run my processor, Bluesound Node, etc. For me this was a good trade off and not for soeone else, all good.
But you are taking on a claim that the country that embraced Demings after the US ignored him and even honor companies with the Demings Award is not conscious of customer usability?? No, sorry, that is too extreme a claim, and it is spurious to put that claim on a website that bills itself as scientific. IMO.

 

[amirm]

As far as the Zune hardware, wasn’t that originally developed by Toshiba?

There were two Zunes. The original one was a rebadged Toshiba player with a slight design change which crazily, was actually thicker than what Toshiba was building. And the Toshiba was already way too thick. They did this because they sat on their hands not working on a project, then got crap beat out of them to get to market and they quickly grabbed the Toshiba since it ran Windows CE. They did a good job redoing the UI but the hardware was non-starter. All of us were sitting in amazement that they thought they could be competitive against Apple with that.

The second gen, "Zune HD" was their own design. It was much better, thin and all. By then it was way, way too late. Apple had a massive lead and with significant advantage on component pricing to say nothing of having Steve jobs, and incredible brand. So they had their hat handed to them even though technically they had done a good job. Internally, the had taken huge losses on the original Zune inventory write-off so the board was no longer willing to give them more rope in the form of hundreds of millions of dollars they needed to compete with Apple.

The executive team to be in charge of Zune development was pulled out of Xbox and they simply did not understand what they were doing in player market. Steve Ballmer thought because they built Xbox, they understood "hardware business." He didn't realize how different Xbox was from competing with Apple and iPod. The team in charge was extremely arrogant and didn't realize their weaknesses, thinking they could take on Apple head on, rather than building an alternative like Android did for phones.

 

[witchdoctor]

It's interesting how Microsft was able to compete favorably with SONY (the subject of this review) but not AAPL in the iPod business. They sure kicked their butt in the computer OS business though.

 

[YSC]

No, that's entirely objective. I'm in exactly the same position. In my case I spent more on the wired and less on the wireless than you (HD 660S and WH-CH700N respectively). There's no comparison between them in terms of sound quality. There's no way I'm going for a 2 hour walk in what could turn out to be the rain with my good headphones, getting the earpieces all sweaty, chucking them in a bag when I get to the shops or fly somewhere, or leaving them on the table by the tv all day in a cheap hotel when abroad etc. In some situations the sound quality is not the most important aspect. The noise cancelling isn't as good on mine as either yours or the XM3 model (which is often cheaper these days) but it's better than nothing.

On a side note, I notice that Aptx-HD has been dropped from the more recent Sony headphones (the XM4 and the model which replaces the WH-CH700N. Some battle between protocols/licensing perhaps? Not all devices support LDAC and I'm not buying any wireless headphones without some decent way of getting music onto the headphones. (I'm not sure why they don't just add an sd card slot directly into the headphone and be done with it).

I think you missed the point of using a DAP, since I bought the Sony ZX300 and use it daily were with IEM, specifically the UERR in balanced mode for listening at crowded area, these CIEM got -26db attenuation and is darn comfortable, and is light as feather so no sweat induced and sounded neutral (compared to 8030C in my non treated room, only difference I could note is that I place the 8030C close to the wall but without using the bass tilt switch as my room mode did something on the bass, so I kept it slight elevated) sens the soundstage thing.

full sized headphones especially open back ones are basically home or studio use, say late night when everyone else is sleeping I would prefer the Hifiman he500 for not disturbing everyone and have an open feel.

 

[Redcarmoose]

You should do it because of your passion, that's all.

Personal audio is personal. And yes your right I do have a passion. The thing is the 1A doesn't need a review. There are really few negative reviews in general. What many maybe don't realize in hindsight is Sony kept adding features. It was not until firmware update 3.01 that the new features were revealed to us. New was Bluetooth receiving and DAC mode. So for years we used the DACs yet Sony insisted to keep improving the firmware. Sony was creating even a new sound for the players. Later after using MrWalkman firmware we realized that Sony was intentionally crippling the sound to stratification the market value curve. The $3200 Walkman 1Z and $1200 1A then became closer together. The firmware for the 8K Sony DMP-Z1 was then emulated with the 1A and 1Z. The DAC ability is so easy. Just push the little DAC symbol at the top of the screen and plug the device into a PC. No big deal.

If you were to study DAP history 2013 is the dark ages. Most units suffered from laggy firmware and crashes. Also as time has gone on DAPs have become more powerful becoming close to desktop in power. Sony marketing shows the DAPs with the MDR-Z1R full size headphones, and while it does work it's far from the best the MDR-Z1R sounds. The multi-pin is truly an area of concern from an engineering standpoint. Yet it fit into the Sony ecosystem. Taking the DAPs and using the Sony Cradle the DAPs allow a user to bypass using a standard computer for use with the Sony TA desktop. Controversial as it is many believe not using PC USB is a way to improve USB computer noise. The multi-pin allows the Cradle to interface with not only a desktop amp, but also allows the DAPs to gather files at the same time and charge, having all three devices hooked together.

The point is this learning to hear subjectively takes time. In doing many reviews reviewers may use an IEM for 200 to 300 hours before submitting a review on tone. Subjective listening tests are just that............subjective. Even new 1A owners find themselves mentally acclimating over the course of weeks before coming to terms with the sound signature. So to have a negative review in comparison to a phone after just limited effort and limited equipment choices seems unfair. This style of effort and failure to truly find truth should add as an incentive to many to truly find out for themselves. Of course everything posted IS someones opinion. Yet it seems simply shallow and wrong to approach such an endeavor with limited resources only relying on a simple set of tests to achieve opinion.

 

[amirm]

Of course everything posted IS someones opinion.

Most of my review is objective, reliable data, not opinion. My audio analyzer doesn't spit out opinion. It gives you hard, repeatable data. It tells you that this device is underpowered. And that is backed by listening tests. It tells you that it has high distortion. And it does although not enough for audiophiles to hear. It is a case of paying a lot, but not getting much.

Even new 1A owners find themselves mentally acclimating over the course of weeks before coming to terms with the sound signature.

That is domain of fantasy, not audio science. There is no sound signature here, other than when it runs out of power. Then it is easy to see so many other portable solutions running circles around it. You can tell that in a few seconds.

Yet it seems simply shallow and wrong to approach such an endeavor with limited resources only relying on a simple set of tests to achieve opinion.

The only shallowness comes from lay intuition about technical matters. And not studying what real audio science and engineering is about.

This could be a great moment for you when you realize everything you think you know about audio up to this point is wrong. And that there is a good way forward that is based on solid understanding. Once there, reviews like this will not pull the rug from under you and cause the angst that it is causing. You choose if you take this new fork in the road. Many have. I promise you a much brighter future if you choose the path of science.

 

[witchdoctor]

Most of my review is objective, reliable data, not opinion.

Now who is in a fantasy?
"Such things simple do not exist in Japanese and other Asian companies. ".
Really? That is a gem I didn't know before, do you have a link to share with some type of statistic? That is not objective, its mumbo jumbo with 0 basis in fact, at least on this planet. Check companies in Asia nominated for the Demings Award, better yet call them, talk to them, get some semblance of what TQM is, then we can discuss

https://deming.org/2019-deming-prize-winners/