Kinda beating a dead horse but... (non blind level-matched DAC comparison)

[BDWoody]

Now if you would do a double blind test showing different DACs, all of differing (confirmed) performance, then this discussion would have actual scientific merit. you hear me?

That would be a different test.

More like, how bad does a DAC have to be before being audibly identifiable from pretty much any remotely competent DAC made in the last 20 years.

Most state they hear a difference between ALL of them. He clearly showed whatever that level is, it's below whatever he's got, and likely low enough to not need to be concerned about.

Seems like that's a lot of merit.

 

[MDAguy]

I think even with your current test you raised the bar high, next time include a headphone jack from your phone or laptop. and trust me you will hear the difference.

Also an important point to consider is what difference do you want to hear? if you play a track with 8-bit of effective dynamic range range ofcourse you won't hear a difference. if you try to play a track with 16-bit of effective dynamic range (although such tracks can be counted on fingers) you will also definitely hear a difference if you lower the noise floor of your room enough.

Take a look at the review for the LG phone. Certainly in the 'inaudible' range of distortion and noise. There's no way I could tell the difference between that and any other DAC I've got.

Are you thinking it should be inherently worse?

Inherently worse, probably yes... whether that translates to an audible difference, unlikely and unsure.

Let's keep things real and grounded (pardon the pun) for a minute.. As I recall from the few times I've visited professional recording studios..If we flip this topic on it's head, which is to say the ADC market (professional recording studios and other critical operators who need analogue to digital conversion, such as broadcasters and such.... Does anyone have any doubt whether the owners of said studios sit around and argue or debate whether it's better to buy a Lynx Aurora ADC (and likely the equally expensive clock) for their recording equipment vs say a $100 DAC from China?

I'd love to know what sort of ADC's are being used at most professional studios, like your favorite artists might record at? I doubt they're cheap, even if they don't intrinsically measure better than a $100 ADC.. which they very likely do.

edit: As a matter of fact, I recall seeing ADC's made by none other than dCS at one studio.. rack mount stuff, with the clocks and all.. I'm sure that studio could have found something cheaper than dCS to provide their ADC.

 

[M00ndancer]

edit: As a matter of fact, I recall seeing ADC's made by none other than dCS at one studio.. rack mount stuff, with the clocks and all.. I'm sure that studio could have found something cheaper than dCS to provide their ADC.

No, there are, for a studio, other things that much more important. Usability, predictable result, features, longevity, build quality, drivers and implementation into the the rest of the studio equipment. I could go on for a long time with out mention the ADC. Price and sound is not the primary reasons if it's good enough.

 

[abdo123]

That would be a different test.

More like, how bad does a DAC have to be before being audibly identifiable from pretty much any remotely competent DAC made in the last 20 years.

Most state they hear a difference between ALL of them. He clearly showed whatever that level is, it's below whatever he's got, and likely low enough to not need to be concerned about.

Seems like that's a lot of merit.

I must have been a little confused as i thought we already stopped beating the ‘DACs have a signature sound’ horse.

 

[BDWoody]

I'm sure that studio could have found something cheaper than dCS to provide their ADC.

I think the recording/ADC world is a separate beast.

As an end user who has no ability to benefit from playback higher than Redbook, that in no way implies that the mix-masters can't during the recording and mastering process.

And, it isn't just about cheap. No one is saying to buy the cheapest. They are saying you don't give up anything in SQ if you buy the cheapest (fundamental competence assumed).

 

[BDWoody]

I must have been a little confused as i thought we already stopped beating the ‘DACs have a signature sound’ horse.

No.. it never dies. He did what almost nobody ever does, because they are too busy writing audio poetry.

 

[MDAguy]

No, there are, for a studio, other things that much more important. Usability, predictable result, features, longevity, build quality, drivers and implementation into the the rest of the studio equipment. I could go on for a long time with out mention the ADC. Price and sound is not the primary reasons if it's good enough.

Completely agree and understand ... it's why the equipment on the airplane I fly (rack mount stuff) is built to a much, much higher standards than the stuff in my car, which in turn is a lot better than the stuff you find in a $100 remote control toy car..

Since we can agree there are measurable quality differences (quality of the individual electrical components, chassis, isolation, power supply, etc).. why is it intrinsically wrong to want to own such stuff? Certainly that's the primary reason I bought my stuff... I know for about 1/10th the price I can get an equally good audio experience, but I don't want a flimsy stamped metal DAC.. I want one made of a solid billet of aluminum, using the most expensive transformers, capacitors, and resisters they can get their hands on... why?

simpele... Because.

 

[BDWoody]

).. why is it intrinsically wrong to want to own such stuff?

Where do you find anyone saying that?

 

[MDAguy]

and for the record I am not trying to (nor will I ever) say that it sounds better.... but there rest of my tactile senses, definitely experience a "betterness" that matters to me too.

 

[MDAguy]

Where do you find anyone saying that?

It's the vibe I get .. where as the audiophile forums are full of guys insisting that their $20,000 IEC power cable makes a huge difference in tone (balderdash).. the guys here are on the other end of the spectrum and seem to poopoo anyone wanting to spend money on nice audio equipment..

Just do a search for the Bartok review someone posted up a while back, and the responses, without so much as one person actually measuring the Bartok or hearing it were universally condemning it's purchase.

Why can't people just be rational and less emotional ... too much to ask of humanity, I suppose.

 

[BDWoody]

and for the record I am not trying to (nor will I ever) say that it sounds better.... but there rest of my tactile senses, definitely experience a "betterness" that matters to me too.

I don't think anyone cares that you like nice things. Many of us do with no apologies. It isn't about that at all, in any way.

 

[BDWoody]

.. the guys here are on the other end of the spectrum and seem to poopoo anyone wanting to spend money on nice audio equipment..

I haven't seen that at all. Keep reading and you'll slowly see revealed some awfully nice gear among our members. I have Krell, Devialet and Bryston Amps. I like them all a lot. They do their jobs very competently. They sound no better than my Adcom, or Denon receivers....most likely....until it would start to get turned up very loud, and then just because the Amp has less power.

There is certainly a prejudice against snake oil, or poorly engineered, high priced shit. Read the TotalDac review for some entertainment...

 

[MDAguy]

I haven't seen that at all. Keep reading and you'll slowly see revealed some awfully nice gear among our members. I have Krell, Devialet and Bryston Amps. I like them all a lot. They do their jobs very competently. They sound no better than my Adcom, or Denon receivers....most likely....until it would start to get turned up very loud, and then just because the Amp has less power.

There is certainly a prejudice against snake oil, or poorly engineered, high priced shit. Read the TotalDac review for some entertainment...

Which might explain why I prefer this forum to Audioafciando, there are smart people both places with good "sound" advice, but here you cut to the chase and get real data / facts, without the editorializing and shaming that I have seen on "Audiophile" forums.

I value the scientific mindset...but one can still unashamedly "geek out" or appreciate equipment for the sake of the equipment sometimes, without there needing to be a specific reason to... That much is subjective, as what we "Value" is unique to us as individuals.

So I guess in the end, we seem to be in agreement after all.

 

[MDAguy]

There is certainly a prejudice against snake oil, or poorly engineered, high priced shit. Read the TotalDac review for some entertainment...

as al lurker, I did.... that was the sole reason I never even bothered to try the PS Audio DAC... and after watching their YouTube channel, I'm glad I didn't.

 

[M00ndancer]

why is it intrinsically wrong to want to own such stuff?

It's not. As long as you get it for the right reasons. Not on sound quality or price. It's all about price/performance/features and what things are important to you.

I have my own example:
I really really crave a RME ADI-2 PRO FS R BLACK EDITION ADC DAC for the low price of €1800....

Does it measure better than my HAD-1, hell yes. Does it objectively sound any better, not really. Not to my old ears. Does it have lot's better features, to warrant the price difference of €1690? Not really, most of the features I have in the HAD-1 or installed on my PC as software. Would it be nice to have? Yes for me at least. Would I buy one, no. The price is not on par of my perceived improvements. But that is only my view on it. Other will think it's really good, and rightfully so, so much that they think I'm totally lost it. They might be right, but I leave that judgement to my wife.

 

[MDAguy]

It's not. As long as you get it for the right reasons. Not on sound quality or price. It's all about price/performance/features and what things are important to you.

I have my own example:
I really really crave a RME ADI-2 PRO FS R BLACK EDITION ADC DAC for the low price of €1800....

Does it measure better than my HAD-1, hell yes. Does it objectively sound any better, not really. Not to my old ears. Does it have lot's better features, to warrant the price difference of €1690? Not really, most of the features I have in the HAD-1 or installed on my PC as software. Would it be nice to have? Yes for me at least. Would I buy one, no. The price is not on par of my perceived improvements. But that is only my view on it. Other will othervise, and rightfully so, that I'm totally lost it.

Money (and what you value spending it on) is the ultimate determiner ... let's face it. I know people that spend idiotic (to me) money on bicycles, while for me it's a point a to point b tool that also gives me a chance to get some exercise... do I judge them that they spent $15000 on a bike when a $1500 made in Taiwan is 98% as good? no... it's their money.

Would I love to see more of the super high end stuff measured, and those companies held accountable for their claims, heck ya... and as I mentioned above, the review and measurements of the PS Audio DAC here was what turned me off to it... but it was also the reviews and measurement data on the dCS that turned me on to them..

I do my research and I execute.. sometimes I'm wrong, it happens.

 

[Blumlein 88]

It's the vibe I get .. where as the audiophile forums are full of guys insisting that their $20,000 IEC power cable makes a huge difference in tone (balderdash).. the guys here are on the other end of the spectrum and seem to poopoo anyone wanting to spend money on nice audio equipment..

Just do a search for the Bartok review someone posted up a while back, and the responses, without so much as one person actually measuring the Bartok or hearing it were universally condemning it's purchase.

Why can't people just be rational and less emotional ... too much to ask of humanity, I suppose.

I think you overstate people condemning it.

It was written by Lee Scoggins a well known MQA shill. Likely shills for anyone with a payday.

I even mentioned in an early post there that it was measured by stereophile and offered excellent performance. Every dcs product I've seen measured was excellent. They are a no BS company in that respect at least.

If someone bought it fine it has some nice features and build quality. If someone says it sounds better at that price than say an RME, well that would be another kettle of fish.

 

[MDAguy]

I think you overstate people condemning it.

It was written by Lee Scoggins a well known MQA shill. Likely shills for anyone with a payday.

I even mentioned in an early post there that it was measured by stereophile and offered excellent performance. Every dcs product I've seen measured was excellent. They are a no BS company in that respect at least.

If someone bought it fine it has some nice features and build quality. If someone says it sounds better at that price than say an RME, well that would be another kettle of fish.

100% agreement here.. as for MQA .. the jury is out for me... I feel like it's more of a "loudness" or "V" shape EQ than anything else.. but that's a topic for a whole other thread!

 

[Blumlein 88]

100% agreement here.. as for MQA .. the jury is out for me... I feel like it's more of a "loudness" or "V" shape EQ than anything else.. but that's a topic for a whole other thread!

The point about LS being a shill isn't because he thinks MQA is good. It is because he says that being part of a group to promote it online in a capacity where he makes money. Also he will ignore facts about how MQA works in order to keep glad handing it and talking it up as a good thing.

 

[BDWoody]

Money (and what you value spending it on) is the ultimate determiner ... let's face it. I know people that spend idiotic (to me) money on bicycles, while for me it's a point a to point b tool that also gives me a chance to get some exercise... do I judge them that they spent $15000 on a bike when a $1500 made in Taiwan is 98% as good? no... it's their money.

Would I love to see more of the super high end stuff measured, and those companies held accountable for their claims, heck ya... and as I mentioned above, the review and measurements of the PS Audio DAC here was what turned me off to it... but it was also the reviews and measurement data on the dCS that turned me on to them..

I do my research and I execute.. sometimes I'm wrong, it happens.

There are all kinds of different playgrounds in life.
If your playground involves buying sports teams and 9 figure yachts, none of this is going to matter much.

For the rest of you (heh...just kidding)... For me, I take some satisfaction in knowing that in terms of SQ, I am not giving up anything to Bill Gates or the King of Saudi Arabia, in any solid state gear, given my use. Speakers are not in the same kind of conversation, at least not yet to me.

100% agreement here.. as for MQA .. the jury is out for me... I feel like it's more of a "loudness" or "V" shape EQ than anything else.. but that's a topic for a whole other thread!

Yep...
This one...among others. Hard to keep it contained.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mqa-sounds-really-good.9512/

40+ pages and counting...