ASR Getting Into Measuring Headphones!

[AudioSmell]

Excellent. In the past I have bought my best headphones solely by studying Tyll's graphs. It took me long time to learn and select, but saved me a lot as well. The most headphones I have bought because of common non-science based reviews I mostly returned or sold later. So I am really looking forward to Amir's take on this topic and I wish that it will become the stadard I will base my future decisions upon. Well, apart from Solderdude's great work.

 

[blse59]

LOL can we finally figure out if the Sony MDR-7506 and MDR-V6 are the same or not? People keep saying different things. Not that it matters since the V6 is discontinued now.

 

[DualTriode]

Hello All,

A good place to start adding and removing specific headphone tests is the IES-60268-7 standard.

The first thing to change from the IEC standard is the 120Ohm output resistance.

What amplifier will be used to power the headphones?

I will start with the Audio Precision APX1701 amplifier

Thanks DT

 

[Tks]

When the initial vote occured whether to move to speakers or headphones. I hoped it would be headphones. I'm dying to see just how much marketing hype there is behind the claims headphone makers make. But more importantly, I'd really like to see who are those that shine, and price consistency exists.

IEMs even more so.

 

[lashto]

Nobody has mentioned soundstage, image, or imaging in this thread, but it often occurs when someone asks about the user experience, as one of the "characteristics".
So...
I wonder what, if anything, can be gleaned from the measurements on that front.

https://www.rtings.com/headphones/tests/sound-quality/passive-soundstage
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/tests/sound-quality/imaging
The theory looks pretty good but AFAIK they are the only ones doing such tests. Which are quite far from being standardized and/or widely accepted.
Judging by my own ears and the headphones I tried, the rtings imaging/soundstage scores do correlate quite well.

Congratulations on your new toy @amirm!

 

[F1308]

Hope a test for HEDDPhone headphones will take place !!!!

 

[Robbo99999]

TBH, I doubt that the majority of users that consider such measurements (not only here on ASR) is fully aware of all the theoretical and practical uncertancies. If we want that to change, we should keep questioning things. Our science is of very limited use without ongoing critical evaluation and practical considerations.

Some would call the spirit of ASR "measurably dogmatic".
I think we can do better.

Sure, which is why I said "a quick nod to it once in a while is ok I think, but not pages of discussion"....it's important to educate newbies so worth discussing it with them, but rehashing arguments between experienced members that have already debated this topic is not a good approach as it's already all been discussed before. But yeah, looking forward to the headphone measurements coming out of this site.

 

[Ron Texas]

In case nobody else has said this, it would be really nice if you could provide recommended EQ settings @amirm

 

[Dreyfus]

Sure, which is why I said "a quick nod to it once in a while is ok I think, but not pages of discussion"....it's important to educate newbies so worth discussing it with them, but rehashing arguments between experienced members that have already debated this topic is not a good approach as it's already all been discussed before. But yeah, looking forward to the headphone measurements coming out of this site.

I admit it is hard to resist, especially when seeing calls for generalized EQ curves.

Fortunately Amir knows what he is doing.

 

[BenF]

In case nobody else has said this, it would be really nice if you could provide recommended EQ settings @amirm

IMHO headphones should already sound good as they come without needing EQ. I'm not really fond of EQing anything. I only buy the headphones that subjectively sound good.

 

[imagidominc]

Yes!! Looking forward to this greatly! ASR is the best.

 

[Robbo99999]

IMHO headphones should already sound good as they come without needing EQ. I'm not really fond of EQing anything. I only buy the headphones that subjectively sound good.

I think there's always room for EQ, even if it's general/broad/rough EQ....for example most open backed headphones are bass shy, so you could EQ that up....closed back headphones do better than that though at stock, and normally arrive with more bass at stock. It's not a bad place to start though - buying headphones that subjectively sound good. The problem with buying phones around subjectively sounding good, sometimes you don't know what you're missing until you've listened to speakers that are proven "close to reference", so it helps to have some kind of a reference point in listening comparisons if you want to try to get the best experience. It's known that our brains get easily trained into "getting used to" a certain sound signature in a headphone or otherwise....but I do believe that a person can get the most out of an experience by "getting used to" proven good sound.

In terms of bass, I think it's somewhat problematical to "get used to good sound" when you're talking speakers as a reference because there's often holes & peaks in the bass from room modes, so I think it's pretty darn hard to have a proper reference speaker setup in terms of bass (but it is possible), so I think proven/measured & potentially EQ'd headphones are probably the best reference to good sound for bass. But for the rest of the frequency range a "proven reference speaker" would be your best reference to good sound.

This is something I've tried to do re my speakers & headphones....I think there's value in getting used to good sound, but try not to get used to bad sound (your brain will if you let it......to some extents) - so don't rely totally on your subjective to choose your headphone if you've got nothing to reference it against. (I'm not saying you don't have a reference, I don't know, don't just rely totally on subjective if you can help it).

 

[amirm]

What amplifier will be used to power the headphones?

I use a Topping A90: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...topping-a90-headphone-amplifier-review.13592/

It is nice with multiple output jacks and three gain settings.

 

[amirm]

In case nobody else has said this, it would be really nice if you could provide recommended EQ settings @amirm

It is the #1 reason I am doing this type of testing. While it is pretty easy to get speakers that don't need EQ, every headphone seems to benefit with EQ. It creates a quandary more than speakers: should I give my final subjective rating based on EQ or without?

 

[solderdude]

should I give my final subjective rating based on EQ or without?

With AND without.

 

[Helicopter]

With AND without.

Agree. There needs to be a certain level of performance without, but their potential with is also important.

 

[Robbo99999]

It is the #1 reason I am doing this type of testing. While it is pretty easy to get speakers that don't need EQ, every headphone seems to benefit with EQ. It creates a quandary more than speakers: should I give my final subjective rating based on EQ or without?

I think it would be great to have a rating pertaining to how good they are at stock, then have another rating for how good they are when EQ'd. I'm fairly certain that most experienced audiophiles here would be EQ'ing their headphones.....certainly when I created my first ever thread here in ASR beginning of this year (when I was a certain noob) it was seen in my poll that 90% of people thought it was worth EQ'ing their headphones. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/is-eqing-headphones-worth-it.11523/
(I don't use the same EQ I posted in that thread...I've learned a lot & developed since then)

I think how they sound once EQ'd is more valuable (to me certainly) than how they sound at stock, because no way would I use a headphone at stock unless I knew it was spot on or if I had no means to EQ it. I think a rating of how good once they are EQ'd tells quite a bit about a headphones true potential and exposes some of it's other qualities beyond purely the frequency measurement.

 

[wasnotwasnotwas]

I think it would be great to have a rating pertaining to how good they are at stock, then have another rating for how good they are when EQ'd. I'm fairly certain that most experienced audiophiles here would be EQ'ing their headphones.....certainly when I created my first ever thread here in ASR last year (when I was a certain noob) it was seen in my poll that 90% of people thought it was worth EQ'ing their headphones. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/is-eqing-headphones-worth-it.11523/

I think how they sound once EQ'd is more valuable (to me certainly) than how they sound at stock, because no way would I use a headphone at stock unless I knew it was spot on or if I had no means to EQ it. I think a rating of how good once they are EQ'd tells quite a bit about a headphones true potential and exposes some of it's other qualities beyond purely the frequency measurement.

Ok- but in the ones already measured, isn't one of the major determinants of the rating/ panther how well it measures against a target FR? So if Amir uses either his own measurements or other established ones with the right kit to EQ to that target, what is he then measuring for? Distortion? What else?

Agreed, if a HP increases distortion in some areas of the spectrum significantly after applying EQ to a target, its not "good". But if its just how well it can be EQ'd, isnt that the Harman preference as calculated by Oratory etc ?

 

[BenF]

With AND without.

Well, ok, I understand the benefits of EQing. But in my opinion EQing is just trying to fix a hardware problem with a piece of software. When I buy a headphone, I want to get flawless performing hardware that suits my needs (perfect sound reproduction in this instance). It reminds me of the original Sennheiser HD800 that had that unfortunate 6 kHz peak that needed a physical mod to eliminate that peak... this is clearly a hardware problem and such flaws should be fixed by the manufacturer before launching a product.

 

[Robbo99999]

Ok- but in the ones already measured, isn't one of the major determinants of the rating/ panther how well it measures against a target FR? So if Amir uses either his own measurements or other established ones with the right kit to EQ to that target, what is he then measuring for? Distortion? What else?

Agreed, if a HP increases distortion in some areas of the spectrum significantly after applying EQ to a target, its not "good". But if its just how well it can be EQ'd, isnt that the Harman preference as calculated by Oratory etc ?

Well it's a good point, in as much as "what is it that we are expecting Amir to measure beyond frequency response"....I'll leave that to him.

Going back to ratings or panther ratings (whatever they're gonna be called)....in my experience different headphones will sound a little different and have different positive & negative attributes even when EQ'd to the same curve (within reason, obviously not totally identical, virtually impossible to have exact same frequency response), so it wouldn't be a rating for just "how accurately they can EQ to the Harman Curve". Some of it though will indeed be down to how accurately they can follow the Harman Curve, because if we assume Amir responds positively to the Headphone Harman Curve (which he does by all accounts), then a headphone that can't functionally be EQ'd to it with any degree of accuracy won't likely be sounding good - and there's no reason why that shouldn't be highlighted either. I definitely see value in a rating for how good they are once they've been EQ'd. I also want to see a rating at stock though of course.