Balanced Headphone connection question

[TechEnthusiast]

What would be the best way to hook up Hifiman Sundara to Fiio BTR5 utilizing balanced input. (I am assuming that they are balanced capable). Do I need a whole new cable or is there a connection adapter. If so, are there any recommendations that I should check out?

 

[Cahudson42]

The Sundara has separate inputs to each cup, and is balanced capable by replacing the cable with something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WMPNFS8/

I have the HE400i with this cable working great with a Qudelix 5k balanced mode.

Just check that your Sundara has 3.5mm TRS females in the cups. The other end of the cable is TRRS 2.5mm

You cannot use an adapter. The problem is the existing cable 3.5mm TRS male shorts the 4-wire into 3-wire. It thus remains shorted with a 3.5mm TRS to 2.5mm adapter.

The Balanced Cables all seem a rip-off. I suspect there is a secret Balanced Cable Cartel propping up the exorbitant prices. You may find a good less expensive one. If so, please let us know in the 'great buys' thread.
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...tc-thread-on-audio-product-sales.3118/page-74

 

[weasels]

I want a t-shirt that says "Balanced Cable Cartel".

 

[TechEnthusiast]

The Sundara has separate inputs to each cup, and is balanced capable by replacing the cable with something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WMPNFS8/

I have the HE400i with this cable working great with a Qudelix 5k balanced mode.

Just check that your Sundara has 3.5mm TRS females in the cups. The other end of the cable is TRRS 2.5mm

You cannot use an adapter. The problem is the existing cable 3.5mm TRS male shorts the 4-wire into 3-wire. It thus remains shorted with a 3.5mm TRS to 2.5mm adapter.

The Balanced Cables all seem a rip-off. I suspect there is a secret Balanced Cable Cartel propping up the exorbitant prices. You may find a good less expensive one. If so, please let us know in the 'great buys' thread.
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...tc-thread-on-audio-product-sales.3118/page-74

The Sundara has an existing cable of se 3.5 on one end and two of them that goes into the cups on either side.
With balanced is there an adapter that will accommodate 2.5 to 4.4 or vice versa.

 

[solderdude]

As @Cahudson explained.
There is no adapter for this.
You need to buy a balanced cable.

Adapters going from a balanced headphone cable to a 3.5 (or 6.3) do exist.
Not the other way around. And even when you find one it is surely going to short the - L and -R outputs of that amp and possibly damage it or cause distortion.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

As @Cahudson explained.
There is no adapter for this.
You need to buy a balanced cable.

Adapters going from a balanced headphone cable to a 3.5 (or 6.3) do exist.
Not the other way around. And even when you find one it is surely going to short the - L and -R outputs of that amp and possibly damage it or cause distortion.

I don't see why se to se works (3.5-6.3) while balanced to balanced (2.5-4.4) will not. Am I missing something?

 

[solderdude]

Bal out has 4 wires that all carry signals
SE out has 2 signal wires and 1 common wire.

SE to SE works
SE to bal works
bal to bal works
bal to SE doesn't work

 

[TechEnthusiast]

Bal out has 4 wires that all carry signals
SE out has 2 signal wires and 1 common wire.

SE to SE works
SE ro bal works
bal to bal works
bal to SE doesn't work

I'm sorry but not sure what you mean by that

Bal out has 4 wires that all carry signals
SE out has 2 signal wires and 1 common wire.

SE to SE works
SE ro bal works
bal to bal works
bal to SE doesn't work

Sorry, but I'm not sure what that means

 

[AnalogSteph]

You CAN adapt a headphone with BALANCED cabling to an UNBALANCED output. Just a matter of the right adapter (cable).

You CANNOT adapt a headphone with UNBALANCED cabling to a BALANCED output. As mentioned, the output would most likely not be amused if you were to short L- and R- together.

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

With balanced is there an adapter that will accommodate 2.5 to 4.4 or vice versa.

Sure. If you buy and use the cable suggested by @Cahudson42 (or equivalent), you can connect your Sundara with the 2.5mm plug to your BTR5 (the latter I believe has a 2.5mm jack or socket). Then if you want instead to connect the Sundara with the new cable to a desktop amp or a DAP that has a 4.4mm Pentaconn jack, you can use a 2.5mm to 4.4mm adapter such as
https://www.amazon.com/Female-Headphone-Earphone-Adapter-Balanced/dp/B0828KQN4X
I have that adapter, and I found the manufacturer to make reliable adapters of which I bought several types, all functioning without a hitch.

As @Cahudson42 and @solderdude and @AnalogSteph emphasized, it may be damaging to the amp to use your original Sundara cable and an adapter with a 3.5mm SE F jack to balanced (2.5mm, 4.4mm or 4-pin XLR) M plug. With a balanced cable on the Sundara, terminated in 2.5mm, 4.4mm or XLR plug, you can use an adapter to connect to any (balanced or unbalanced) jack - 3.5mm, 6.35mm, 2.5mm, 4.4mm, XLR.

 

[MRC01]

I'm sorry but not sure what you mean by that
Sorry, but I'm not sure what that means

A balanced (differentially signalled) headphone output has 4 pins and sends a voltage signal to all of them. You cannot connect any of these signals to ground, else it will short the circuit which can damage the amplifier.

A single ended (unbalanced) output has 3 pins, and sends a voltage to 2 of them, the third is a common ground for both and carries no signal.

Here's an intuitive explanation with pictures.

 

[Cahudson42]

Though it uses the Qudelix as an example, this Note describes SE (Single Ended) and Balanced..

 

[TechEnthusiast]

Sure. If you buy and use the cable suggested by @Cahudson42 (or equivalent), you can connect your Sundara with the 2.5mm plug to your BTR5 (the latter I believe has a 2.5mm jack or socket). Then if you want instead to connect the Sundara with the new cable to a desktop amp or a DAP that has a 4.4mm Pentaconn jack, you can use a 2.5mm to 4.4mm adapter such as
https://www.amazon.com/Female-Headphone-Earphone-Adapter-Balanced/dp/B0828KQN4X
I have that adapter, and I found the manufacturer to make reliable adapters of which I bought several types, all functioning without a hitch.

As @Cahudson42 and @solderdude and @AnalogSteph emphasized, it may be damaging to the amp to use your original Sundara cable and an adapter with a 3.5mm SE F jack to balanced (2.5mm, 4.4mm or 4-pin XLR) M plug. With a balanced cable on the Sundara, terminated in 2.5mm, 4.4mm or XLR plug, you can use an adapter to connect to any (balanced or unbalanced) jack - 3.5mm, 6.35mm, 2.5mm, 4.4mm, XLR.

Thanks. That is the info that I was looking for. Perhaps I wasn't asking it correctly.
I think what I want is the opposite. The pentagon termination on the cable that connects to the headphones and a reducer to the 2.5 balanced.

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

Thanks. That is the info that I was looking for. Perhaps I wasn't asking it correctly.
I think what I want is the opposite. The pentagon termination on the cable that connects to the headphones and a reducer to the 2.5 balanced.

Yes, you can do the opposite too, provided you can find such a cable terminated in a Pentaconn plug for the Sundara (search on AliExpress if you cannot find one on Amazon). The adapter brand I linked to does sell also the adapter that you would need (which I also have, works great). The replacement cables terminated in 4.4mm plugs are not yet as commonly available as those terminated in a 2.5mm or XLR plug.

I have replaced most of my IEM cables with balanced cables terminated in Pentaconn plugs. Easier to do, because all my IEMs have either MMCX or 2-pin 0.78mm sockets, and those are pretty standard for the replacement cables. I am trying to replace some of my headphone cables with balanced cables terminated in 4-pin XLR, because I will use them mostly with desktop HP amps. However, some of the HPs have proprietary connectors at the HP end. I have adapters for XLR and 4.4mm to other plug types.

Update: I think these would work for what you have in mind:
https://www.amazon.com/NewFantasia-Balanced-Connector-Compatible-Headphones/dp/B08DKJ9YQ7
https://www.amazon.com/Female-Headphone-Earphone-Adapter-Balanced/dp/B0828JC16Q
https://www.amazon.com/Female-Headphone-Earphone-Adapter-Balanced/dp/B0827DJR8V

 

[TechEnthusiast]

Yes, you can do the opposite too, provided you can find such a cable terminated in a Pentaconn plug for the Sundara (search on AliExpress if you cannot find one on Amazon). The adapter brand I linked to does sell also the adapter that you would need (which I also have, works great). The replacement cables terminated in 4.4mm plugs are not yet as commonly available as those terminated in a 2.5mm or XLR plug.

I have replaced most of my IEM cables with balanced cables terminated in Pentaconn plugs. Easier to do, because all my IEMs have either MMCX or 2-pin 0.78mm sockets, and those are pretty standard for the replacement cables. I am trying to replace some of my headphone cables with balanced cables terminated in 4-pin XLR, because I will use them mostly with desktop HP amps. However, some of the HPs have proprietary connectors at the HP end. I have adapters for XLR and 4.4mm to other plug types.

Update: I think these would work for what you have in mind:
https://www.amazon.com/NewFantasia-Balanced-Connector-Compatible-Headphones/dp/B08DKJ9YQ7
https://www.amazon.com/Female-Headphone-Earphone-Adapter-Balanced/dp/B0828JC16Q
https://www.amazon.com/Female-Headphone-Earphone-Adapter-Balanced/dp/B0827DJR8V

Thanks for the help. Now if you could answer this; why balanced? Is it just more efficient and provides more power? Is there a benefit in pairing a balanced dac with a balanced amp? And why are these seemingly simple connectors so expensive?

 

[raif71]

I want a t-shirt that says "Balanced Cable Cartel".

I prefer "The Cable Cabal"

 

[MRC01]

... Now if you could answer this; why balanced? Is it just more efficient and provides more power? Is there a benefit in pairing a balanced dac with a balanced amp? And why are these seemingly simple connectors so expensive?

One of the original purposes for balanced connectors was microphone feeds. Mics have very low level signals (millivolts) with long cable runs passing through electrically noisy environments (recording studios). Balanced / differential signalling is unaffected by external noise because the cable has no net electrical field, since the + and - signals are always opposites so their sum is always zero. For the same reason, their difference is twice either of them, so you get twice the voltage signal. So balanced wires can deliver a signal that picks up less common mode noise and has a higher S/N ratio.

The extent to which these benefits apply in a typical home audio environment having line level signals carried over shorter cables is debatable. It makes devices more expensive because they need mirror image outputs. Yet the pin-outs on many DAC chips provide the analog signal as balanced, so a balanced DAC can have slightly better specs. Based on measurements here and elsewhere, these differences are well below audible thresholds. One can say that balanced has design advantages, yet unbalanced / single ended can be just as clean, for most practical purposes.

As for headphone standards: I believe all headphones should come with a 4-pin balanced connector by default/standard. If you have a balanced amp, you simply plug it in. If you have an unbalanced amp, you use an adapter that costs $10 or less. Easy-peasy, makes everyone happy. No need to ever recable the headpone.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

One of the original purposes for balanced connectors was microphone feeds. Mics have very low level signals (millivolts) with long cable runs passing through electrically noisy environments (recording studios). Balanced / differential signalling is unaffected by external noise because the cable has no net electrical field, since the + and - signals are always opposites so their sum is always zero. For the same reason, their difference is twice either of them, so you get twice the voltage signal. So balanced wires can deliver a signal that picks up less common mode noise and has a higher S/N ratio.

The extent to which these benefits apply in a typical home audio environment having line level signals carried over shorter cables is debatable. It makes devices more expensive because they need mirror image outputs. Yet the pin-outs on many DAC chips provide the analog signal as balanced, so a balanced DAC can have slightly better specs. Based on measurements here and elsewhere, these differences are well below audible thresholds. One can say that balanced has design advantages, yet unbalanced / single ended can be just as clean, for most practical purposes.

As for headphone standards: I believe all headphones should come with a 4-pin balanced connector by default/standard. If you have a balanced amp, you simply plug it in. If you have an unbalanced amp, you use an adapter that costs $10 or less. Easy-peasy, makes everyone happy. No need to ever recable the headpone.

So if I understand you correctly it is beneficial for headphones to utilize the balanced cables when using balanced amplification but that the balanced dac connections will make differences that are most likely inaudible.

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

Thanks for the help. Now if you could answer this; why balanced? Is it just more efficient and provides more power? Is there a benefit in pairing a balanced dac with a balanced amp? And why are these seemingly simple connectors so expensive?

@MRC01 provided a detailed reply to most of your questions. In practice, as far as headphones/IEMs are concerned, the main benefit of balanced amp (desktop or DAP) outputs is that they can provide up to four times more power than their SE outputs, if the amp uses a fully balanced differential circuit topology. Not relevant to you with a desktop amp, because your Sundaras are easy to drive (lower impedance, higher efficiency), and would not need that much power. However, with the BTR5 the difference between 3.5mm and 2.5mm outputs (more power from the latter) may quite possibly make a difference as to whether your Sundaras will be loud enough for your enjoyment. The other benefit of switching the current 3.5mm plug cable to a 2.5mm or 4.4mm plug balanced cable is the similar to MRC01's comment about the 4-pin XLR plug: you can then connect the Sundaras to any headphone output be it balanced or unbalanced with an adapter if needed.

What MRC01 is saying is that if you have a headphone cable terminated with 4-pin XLR plug, you can simply plug it into the balanced output of any headphone amp that provides one (these are almost always XLR jacks, a few desktop amps like the Topping A90 are starting to offer 4.4mm in addition). And use an adapter to connect the headphone to any SE output of any amp. If instead, the headphone has the usual SE plug cable that almost all of them come with, then you cannot use an adapter to plug it into a balanced output of an amp - you would need to replace the cable as you plan to do.

When it comes to interconnect cables between DAC and amp, adding to what MRC01 said, the principal benefit of balanced interconnects as I see it is that they help avoid issues of ground loop hums and other buzzes and noises that you may (or may not) encounter with single-ended RCA interconnects. If the RCA SE interconnects do not suffer from any noise problems due to improper earthing/grounding of the DAC and amp, the sound quality difference between RCA interconnects and XLR interconnects will be inaudible.

The connectors are expensive partially because there is quite a bit of manual labor that goes into making them, including the Litz weaving and the soldering and testing. These are not mass produced using machines. Also, the XLR and 4.4mm plugs/jacks cost a bit more than the very common 3.5mm SE versions. Also, I think the fact that these are niche products, desired mainly by audiophiles willing to pay a bit more, factors into the price too. You get the silver-plated oxygen-free copper slant to them, whether it makes any audible difference or not.

 

[TechEnthusiast]

@MRC01 provided a detailed reply to most of your questions. In practice, as far as headphones/IEMs are concerned, the main benefit of balanced amp (desktop or DAP) outputs is that they can provide up to four times more power than their SE outputs, if the amp uses a fully balanced differential circuit topology. Not relevant to you with a desktop amp, because your Sundaras are easy to drive (lower impedance, higher efficiency), and would not need that much power. However, with the BTR5 the difference between 3.5mm and 2.5mm outputs (more power from the latter) may quite possibly make a difference as to whether your Sundaras will be loud enough for your enjoyment. The other benefit of switching the current 3.5mm plug cable to a 2.5mm or 4.4mm plug balanced cable is the similar to MRC01's comment about the 4-pin XLR plug: you can then connect the Sundaras to any headphone output be it balanced or unbalanced with an adapter if needed.

What MRC01 is saying is that if you have a headphone cable terminated with 4-pin XLR plug, you can simply plug it into the balanced output of any headphone amp that provides one (these are almost always XLR jacks, a few desktop amps like the Topping A90 are starting to offer 4.4mm in addition). And use an adapter to connect the headphone to any SE output of any amp. If instead, the headphone has the usual SE plug cable that almost all of them come with, then you cannot use an adapter to plug it into a balanced output of an amp - you would need to replace the cable as you plan to do.

When it comes to interconnect cables between DAC and amp, adding to what MRC01 said, the principal benefit of balanced interconnects as I see it is that they help avoid issues of ground loop hums and other buzzes and noises that you may (or may not) encounter with single-ended RCA interconnects. If the RCA SE interconnects do not suffer from any noise problems due to improper earthing/grounding of the DAC and amp, the sound quality difference between RCA interconnects and XLR interconnects will be inaudible.

The connectors are expensive partially because there is quite a bit of manual labor that goes into making them, including the Litz weaving and the soldering and testing. These are not mass produced using machines. Also, the XLR and 4.4mm plugs/jacks cost a bit more than the very common 3.5mm SE versions. Also, I think the fact that these are niche products, desired mainly by audiophiles willing to pay a bit more, factors into the price too. You get the silver-plated oxygen-free copper slant to them, whether it makes any audible difference or not.

Thank you so much for taking the time and providing me with a much clearer understanding of the balanced tech. Thanks to everyone here on the forum for helping out.