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Buchardt A500 subjective review

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Emlin

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I don't think you will agree with me on this, but my primary point is that his opinions on DACs really has nothing to do his assessment of speakers. To me they are barely related, even if they are both about audio. One doesn't really impact the other. You might as well be discussing his taste in food or whether New York or Italian pizza is better(New York Pizza is better, obviously, but don't sleep on connecticut).

When it comes to subjective reviews, they're just that:, subjective. Of the speakers I've overlapped with Amir, for instance, I don't find I agree with him any more than any other subjective reviewer -- even though we've gotten very similar measurements. And I don't mean whether something is good or bad -- I'm in general much more positive than amir -- but whether something is bright or dull, bassy, forward, wimpy, etc.

Of course, things are different once you factor in measurements, that's where the true objectivity comes in. But even then I often disagree with the interpretation of data.

Anyway, I don't mind anyone feeling one way or the other, but I do think it's an interesting to discussion to assess what subjective reviews should be like -- what constitutes a good subjective-only review.

I think the point is that with all Darko's deep listening over weeks, he hears differences between DACs which are demonstrably not there.

Therefore, when listening to speakers, he is likely to be similarly flawed.

I don't trust his ears.
 

ethanhallbeyer

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I think the point is that with all Darko's deep listening over weeks, he hears differences between DACs which are demonstrably not there.

Therefore, when listening to speakers, he is likely to be similarly flawed.

I don't trust his ears.

i can hear differences between dacs, amps and speakers.
 

ethanhallbeyer

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Darko is one of the best reviewers today. He actually uses the products for weeks before making a review. He evaluates usability features, fit and finish, and audio quality.. How does that compare to someone hooking up a microphone, measuring SINAD, and then calling it a day?

couldnt have said it better myself lol
 

ethanhallbeyer

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i can tell an smsl su8 is brighter than my chifi dual burr brown dac. a marantz receiver is warmer than a pioneer
 

richard12511

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i can tell an smsl su8 is brighter than my chifi dual burr brown dac. a marantz receiver is warmer than a pioneer

Unless you can prove this via the ABX comparator tool(or something similar), then it's almost certainly(99.9999%) due to placebo.

Placebo is very powerful, and no one is immune. And it's not that you don't hear differences, you do, but the differences you hear are caused by your brain, and have nothing to do with the sound waves entering your ears.
 

ethanhallbeyer

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Unless you can prove this via the ABX comparator tool(or something similar), then it's almost certainly(99.9999%) due to placebo.

Placebo is very powerful, and no one is immune. And it's not that you don't hear differences, you do, but the differences you hear are caused by your brain, and have nothing to do with the sound waves entering your ears.

all that matters is what you perceive. you can try to will yourself to enjoy perfect measurement product but you like what you like ultimately. tell me, which you would rather have?
 

AudioJester

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I think the point is that with all Darko's deep listening over weeks, he hears differences between DACs which are demonstrably not there.

Therefore, when listening to speakers, he is likely to be similarly flawed.

I don't trust his ears.

Fair enough, I never solely trust anyones impression in isolation.
 

richard12511

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all that matters is what you perceive.
This is something I've brought up before. Ultimately, real vs imaginary sound differences are the same, as both are real to the "perceiver" so long as the perceiver isn't aware that the imaginary differences are imaginary. After all, we don't hear with our ears. We hear with our brains, for which the ears are just one of many inputs. Why should it matter if those perceived sound differences come from our ears if our brains can produce the same effect?

The problem with imaginary sound differences, though, is that they rely on the perceiver never learning the truth. Once they learn the truth - that the sound waves entering their ears are exactly the same - the placebo effect quickly fades. Real soundwave differences are real though, and they last no matter how knowledgeable one becomes.

I used to "hear" differences between DACs and AMPs, too. Then I started doing blind tests with myself and friends. I'll be honest and say it was kind of a punch in the gut to learn I had wasted quite a bit of money on electronics that don't change the sound at all. On the bright side, though, I now have more money to spend on things that actually do improve the sound. There's a hearing ability test over on the AVS 2-channel forum of a $9 Apple DAC. Go see if you can pass that test, and if you can, post your score sheet here. So far, no one has been able to pass the test, which goes to show that $9 is all you need to spend on a DAC to get sound that is perfect to beyond the limits of the human ear. If you're spending more than $9 on a DAC for the purposes of sound quality, you're wasting your money. That is unless you can pass the test ;).

you can try to will yourself to enjoy perfect measurement product

No need for willpower here. Perfect measuring speakers are the speakers that sound best to me naturally. It's the other - bad measuring - speakers that I have to will myself to enjoy.

but you like what you like ultimately.

100% agreed.

tell me, which you would rather have?

I'll settle for placebo sound differences if I have to, but I'd prefer real sound differences. They're less flimsy.
 

ethanhallbeyer

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This is something I've brought up before. Ultimately, real vs imaginary sound differences are the same, as both are real to the "perceiver" so long as the perceiver isn't aware that the imaginary differences are imaginary. After all, we don't hear with our ears. We hear with our brains, for which the ears are just one of many inputs. Why should it matter if those perceived sound differences come from our ears if our brains can produce the same effect?

The problem with imaginary sound differences, though, is that they rely on the perceiver never learning the truth. Once they learn the truth - that the sound waves entering their ears are exactly the same - the placebo effect quickly fades. Real soundwave differences are real though, and they last no matter how knowledgeable one becomes.

I used to "hear" differences between DACs and AMPs, too. Then I started doing blind tests with myself and friends. I'll be honest and say it was kind of a punch in the gut to learn I had wasted quite a bit of money on electronics that don't change the sound at all. On the bright side, though, I now have more money to spend on things that actually do improve the sound. There's a hearing ability test over on the AVS 2-channel forum of a $9 Apple DAC. Go see if you can pass that test, and if you can, post your score sheet here. So far, no one has been able to pass the test, which goes to show that $9 is all you need to spend on a DAC to get sound that is perfect to beyond the limits of the human ear. If you're spending more than $9 on a DAC for the purposes of sound quality, you're wasting your money. That is unless you can pass the test ;).



No need for willpower here. Perfect measuring speakers are the speakers that sound best to me naturally. It's the other - bad measuring - speakers that I have to will myself to enjoy.



100% agreed.



I'll settle for placebo sound differences if I have to, but I'd prefer real sound differences. They're less flimsy.
i still think theres also everyones hearing may differ based on the shape of their ears, hearing quality, room characteristics.
 

ethanhallbeyer

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This is something I've brought up before. Ultimately, real vs imaginary sound differences are the same, as both are real to the "perceiver" so long as the perceiver isn't aware that the imaginary differences are imaginary. After all, we don't hear with our ears. We hear with our brains, for which the ears are just one of many inputs. Why should it matter if those perceived sound differences come from our ears if our brains can produce the same effect?

The problem with imaginary sound differences, though, is that they rely on the perceiver never learning the truth. Once they learn the truth - that the sound waves entering their ears are exactly the same - the placebo effect quickly fades. Real soundwave differences are real though, and they last no matter how knowledgeable one becomes.

I used to "hear" differences between DACs and AMPs, too. Then I started doing blind tests with myself and friends. I'll be honest and say it was kind of a punch in the gut to learn I had wasted quite a bit of money on electronics that don't change the sound at all. On the bright side, though, I now have more money to spend on things that actually do improve the sound. There's a hearing ability test over on the AVS 2-channel forum of a $9 Apple DAC. Go see if you can pass that test, and if you can, post your score sheet here. So far, no one has been able to pass the test, which goes to show that $9 is all you need to spend on a DAC to get sound that is perfect to beyond the limits of the human ear. If you're spending more than $9 on a DAC for the purposes of sound quality, you're wasting your money. That is unless you can pass the test ;).



No need for willpower here. Perfect measuring speakers are the speakers that sound best to me naturally. It's the other - bad measuring - speakers that I have to will myself to enjoy.



100% agreed.



I'll settle for placebo sound differences if I have to, but I'd prefer real sound differences. They're less flimsy.

i will check out the test.
 

Chromatischism

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i still think theres also everyones hearing may differ based on the shape of their ears, hearing quality, room characteristics.
Human hearing falls on a bell curve. Preference testing has shown what the majority prefer. Most of those outside the bell curve differ due to bass level preferences (more vs less) and an accommodation for high-frequency hearing loss (needs more treble to hear "normal" sound).
 

BDWoody

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I think the point is that with all Darko's deep listening over weeks, he hears differences between DACs which are demonstrably not there.

Therefore, when listening to speakers, he is likely to be similarly flawed.

I don't trust his ears.

He's also going to stop letting people leave comments. I guess he got tired of all the cleanup work required.
 

ttimer

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The problem with imaginary sound differences, though, is that they rely on the perceiver never learning the truth. Once they learn the truth - that the sound waves entering their ears are exactly the same - the placebo effect quickly fades. Real soundwave differences are real though, and they last no matter how knowledgeable one becomes.

I think there is a more immediate problem. Imaginary sound differences are not consistent between listeners. Therefore, talking about them or stating them is not useful for anyone else.
 

Jimbob54

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You didn't answer my previous question: Do you have any accomplishments? I need to know if you're qualified to criticize Darko. He's a member of EISA. What are you a member of?

Ahhh- I see the game is now afoot. Care to enlighten us as to what EISA is? What is required to become a member?

I think I know , but I would love to hear your take on it.
 
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