Apollon Hypex NC2K Amplifier Teardown

[Jake71]

John, before you go off on one again you need to base your statements on facts.

What evidence or information do you have of Hypex modules failing due to these caps being faulty?

meh, this is a $2000 mono amplifier, no one needs to prove it's bad, however it need's to prove it will stand the test of time which is questionable with no-name capacitors.

 

[March Audio]

meh, this is a $2000 mono amplifier, no one needs to prove it's bad, however it need's to prove it will stand the test of time which is questionable with no-name capacitors.

So I take it you have no evidence of failures of these modules due to these capacitors.......and yes they have been around for a number of years.

 

[Jake71]

So I take it you have no evidence of failures of these modules due to these capacitors.......and yes they have been around for a number of years.

Sure, but why make a premium product with cheap ass capacitors? Why not spend the extra $10 and get some brand name Japanese high quality capacitors with a known history of lasting decades under high load and temperature.

 

[March Audio]

Sure, but why make a premium product with cheap ass capacitors? Why not spend the extra $10 and get some brand name Japanese high quality capacitors with a known history of lasting decades under high load and temperature.

Could be a simple engineering decision. You don't put over specified and higher cost components in if the cheaper ones are perfectly adequate.

 

[Jake71]

Could be a simple engineering decision. You don't put over specified and higher cost components in if the cheaper ones are perfectly adequate.

That sound like both a bad engineering and marketing decision, please explain how how this decision would in any way benefit the end user,

 

[RichB]

I have had a Sunfire Cinema 200 WPC amp in my vacation home for about 20 years. It has no trigger and the auto-on/off logic often fails to detect a signal when only the center channel is playing. As a result, the amp must be left on 24/7 for about 8 months of the year.

It's tour of duty is ending and I am replacing it with a ATI AT525NC NCore amp.
The ATI will trigger so it will get less on-time but am starting wonder about the lifespan of the NCore modules.
Perhaps, I'll check in at 5 year intervals

- Rich

 

[Vasr]

John, before you go off on one again you need to base your statements on facts.

What evidence or information do you have of Hypex modules failing due to these caps being faulty?

That is begging the question and a deflection. @restorer-john wasn't commenting on these Hypex modules failing but these modules using components that have a known history of failing in other uses (in his experience). He does have a valid point as to why a SOTL/TOTL product must use such a component.

As far as I know there is no central repository of information for tracking failures of Hypex modules to know whether they have failed other than self-certification from vested manufacturers. So, absence of evidence in this case does not imply evidence of absence. It is irrelevant anyway for the above comment.

The analogy would be a disk drive that is known to have a higher than expected rate of failure. There are a few such known ones from third party tests. Doesn't mean all of them will fail or that your would see computer graveyards would be full of computers using them.

Say Apple were to use one of those drives in their top of the line Macs being sold at a premium. It is perfectly reasonable to criticize them for using such a component without having to prove how many Macs have failed because of that drive.

As a consumer, if I am paying a premium price it would very well be reasonably within my expectation to expect top quality components, not just take the manufacturers claims for it. Similar criticisms have been made for other units like NAD.

It might a reasonable argument if you can show that the capacitor failures that John might have seen is not from the type of use it sees in Hypex modules and therefore not likely to suffer from the same failure modes as he might have seen.

Could be a simple engineering decision. You don't put over specified and higher cost components in if the cheaper ones are perfectly adequate.

Every lemon of an automobile had exactly the above line of thinking from the manufacturer before it became known as a lemon. So I am not sure I would be saying that with a straight face if I were in your shoes.

 

[TomJ]

You don't put over specified and higher cost components in if the cheaper ones are perfectly adequate.

“Adequate” depends on the requirements. What are the requirements these days for product lifetime? I seldom see that stated anymore for finished products (not components).

 

[restorer-john]

John, before you go off on one again you need to base your statements on facts.

What evidence or information do you have of Hypex modules failing due to these caps being faulty?

And before you go defending crap brand capacitors, because they are used in Hypex modules you sell, ones that are renowned for failure, ones that I (and thousands of other technicians) have removed en-masse over the years, just remind me how long you have been selling the modules again? What would you know of their reliability until 7-10 years down the track in the real world?

Su'Scon are terrible capacitors, everybody in the business knows that. Samwha are cheap Korean caps that are OK- that's all. They are not premium or revered for their reliability. Aishi caps are no better. They do a ton of small HV caps for disposable CFL/LED smps supplies. As I'm sure you know, it's not the LEDs that fail in the lightbulbs, it's the capacitors. Thank goodness most reputable manufacturers won't touch them with a 40ft bargepole.

Hypex are simply using cheap capacitors to save money- no other reason. You can't tell me otherwise with a straight face. It doesn't immediately affect their excellent performance. It does however affect their long term reliability. It's an absolutely indefensible position on TOTL and expensive modules. Maybe on a $29.95 bluetooth speaker, but a statement power amplifier and PSU? Come on.

You, instead of attacking the messengers of truth, should perhaps put pressure on Hypex to use better components- it will help you down the track, or maybe you'll wash your hands of the problems when they occur? I don't think you are that kind of person, you'll look after your customers, but it will come at a significant cost to you. Would Rolls Royce compromise on some flexible hoses in a jet engine to save money? Knowing the engine would perform fine for 5 years but then possibly catastrophically fail? You know the answer.

I know you would not remotely consider using Su'Scon, Samwha or Aishi capacitors on a TOTL, several thousand dollar amplifier you had designed from scratch. Nobody would. Except Hypex it seems.

 

[TomJ]

Similar criticisms have been made for other units like NAD...

And still going, eg the Jianghai caps in the NAD C 298 (3000 hr rating)

 

[March Audio]

That sound like both a bad engineering and marketing decision, please explain how how this decision would in any way benefit the end user,

Not at all. You cant look at the headline XXX hrs life and understand how long the cap will last. Many other variables involved. EG reducing temp by 10 deg will double the life.

How does increasing cost for no benefit help the end user?

 

[March Audio]

That is begging the question and a deflection. @restorer-john wasn't commenting on these Hypex modules failing but these modules using components that have a known history of failing in other uses (in his experience). He does have a valid point as to why a SOTL/TOTL product must use such a component.

As far as I know there is no central repository of information for tracking failures of Hypex modules to know whether they have failed other than self-certification from vested manufacturers. So, absence of evidence in this case does not imply evidence of absence. It is irrelevant anyway for the above comment.

The analogy would be a disk drive that is known to have a higher than expected rate of failure. There are a few such known ones from third party tests. Doesn't mean all of them will fail or that your would see computer graveyards would be full of computers using them.

Say Apple were to use one of those drives in their top of the line Macs being sold at a premium. It is perfectly reasonable to criticize them for using such a component without having to prove how many Macs have failed because of that drive.

As a consumer, if I am paying a premium price it would very well be reasonably within my expectation to expect top quality components, not just take the manufacturers claims for it. Similar criticisms have been made for other units like NAD.

It might a reasonable argument if you can show that the capacitor failures that John might have seen is not from the type of use it sees in Hypex modules and therefore not likely to suffer from the same failure modes as he might have seen.


Every lemon of an automobile had exactly the above line of thinking from the manufacturer before it became known as a lemon. So I am not sure I would be saying that with a straight face if I were in your shoes.

So he was extrapolating and making assumptions that these caps in this product will fail without basis.

If there were any significant problem it would be noted on the internet.

Are you paying a premium price? I dont think so. For a 2kW amp of this perfromance I think it is good value for money.

You simply cant extrapolate failure in one product with different specs of caps to another product with different operating conditions.

 

[March Audio]

And before you go defending crap brand capacitors, because they are used in Hypex modules you sell, ones that are renowned for failure, ones that I (and thousands of other technicians) have removed en-masse over the years, just remind me how long you have been selling the modules again? What would you know of their reliability until 7-10 years down the track in the real world?

Su'Scon are terrible capacitors, everybody in the business knows that. Samwha are cheap Korean caps that are OK- that's all. They are not premium or revered for their reliability. Aishi caps are no better. They do a ton of small HV caps for disposable CFL/LED smps supplies. As I'm sure you know, it's not the LEDs that fail in the lightbulbs, it's the capacitors. Thank goodness most reputable manufacturers won't touch them with a 40ft bargepole.

Hypex are simply using cheap capacitors to save money- no other reason. You can't tell me otherwise with a straight face. It doesn't immediately affect their excellent performance. It does however affect their long term reliability. It's an absolutely indefensible position on TOTL and expensive modules. Maybe on a $29.95 bluetooth speaker, but a statement power amplifier and PSU? Come on.

You, instead of attacking the messengers of truth, should perhaps put pressure on Hypex to use better components- it will help you down the track, or maybe you'll wash your hands of the problems when they occur? I don't think you are that kind of person, you'll look after your customers, but it will come at a significant cost to you. Would Rolls Royce compromise on some flexible hoses in a jet engine to save money? Knowing the engine would perform fine for 5 years but then possibly catastrophically fail? You know the answer.

I know you would not remotely consider using Su'Scon, Samwha or Aishi capacitors on a TOTL, several thousand dollar amplifier you had designed from scratch. Nobody would. Except Hypex it seems.

Im not defending anything John. Im just asking you to justify your assumptions and extrapolations. Oh come on you are not the harbinger of truth here, its just your anecdotal experience from your own workbench. This site is about science not story telling.

As I asked please tell me about all the Hypex capacitor failures that would surely be happening if these caps are unreliable in this application and design and that are according to you "renowned for failure".

How long do you think Hypex have been selling these amps? The ncore range started in 2010, UCD prior to that.

Comparing this to a jet engine is pure comedy and a total straw man.

I would use caps that are technically suitable for the job whilst minimising cost. Thats good design and engineering.

 

[Laserjock]

If a customer prefers better caps we offer replacement/upgrade of the caps for Nichicon or Rubycon.

How much would it add if you did it to all production as standard practice?

 

[Jake71]

Not at all. You cant look at the headline XXX hrs life and understand how long the cap will last. Many other variables involved. EG reducing temp by 10 deg will double the life.

How does increasing cost for no benefit help the end user?

I'd have no problem paying $10 extra to have high quality Japanese capacitors in my amplifier instead of questionable Chinese caps, especially when we are talking a $2000 amplifier then it's not even a questions, everyone would go with that option.

I've seen plenty of cheap caps leaking after just a couple of years in a high switching current environment like switchmode power supplies.

 

[March Audio]

I'd have no problem paying $10 extra to have high quality Japanese capacitors in my amplifier instead of questionable Chinese caps, especially when we are talking a $2000 amplifier then it's not even a questions, everyone would go with that option.

I've seen plenty of cheap caps leaking after just a couple of years in a high switching current environment like switchmode power supplies.

I have also seen plenty of leaking caps over the years, from "reputable" brands too. Its too simplistic to make assumptions that a certain brand will be trouble free.

 

[Jake71]

I have also seen plenty of leaking caps over the years, from "reputable" brands too. Its too simplistic to make assumptions that a certain brand will be trouble free.

Ok, assuming you speak the truth, so in your experience are reputable Japanese caps more or less likely to leak than cheap Chinese ones?

 

[March Audio]

Ok, assuming you speak the truth, so in your experience are reputable Japanese caps more or less likely to leak than cheap Chinese ones?

As I already said it depends on circumstance and application, circuit design, environment etc. You simply cant make assumptions.

 

[Jake71]

As I already said it depends on circumstance and application, circuit design, environment etc. You simply cant make assumptions.

So we can conclude brand capacitors are better than cheap chinese capacitors? and a $2000 amplifier should not try to save $10 on capacitors.

 

[Vasr]

So he was extrapolating and making assumptions that these caps in this product will fail without basis.

With justification of having seen such components fail. You can question his experience with such components if you like but not concluding that such components don't belong in a SOTA module. This is what a consumer would expect too. I can see your defense as a manufacturer using Hypex modules but those are subject to bias.

If there were any significant problem it would be noted on the internet.

That depends on the scale with which they fail and the distribution within various producers assuming the owners even come to know of the reason. This isn't just a Class D issue. Adcom amps for example were notorious for using bad caps in some models and batches that would leak and damage the board and the components around them. It only became known a decade or more later, not at the time people were buying them.

Poor drives from Seagate and WD are well-known but how much data do we have we of a specific computer brand failing from using them? Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

If I was a consumer looking for something like this in this price range, why would I willingly put myself to be part of a statistic in the future? Like I said before absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. You are using the same fallacy.

You simply cant extrapolate failure in one product with different specs of caps to another product with different operating conditions.

Like I said earlier, the burden of proof would then be on the Hypex module maker/integrator to show that the operating conditions are different in these modules to not suffer the same fate.

I have also seen plenty of leaking caps over the years, from "reputable" brands too. Its too simplistic to make assumptions that a certain brand will be trouble free.

This is a rather weak "both-sides" argument.

I think the gent doth protest too much.