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Magnepan LRS Speaker Review

Frank Dernie

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It can be called “flat” down to 50Hz. Keep in mind though we don’t like bass that is flat in room, 20Hz should be at least ~5dB higher than 1kHz, which in turn should be somewhere around 5dB higher than 20kHz.
I think we should recognise that this is a general conclusion from a mix of listeners.
When Amir did his article about Audyssey I bought the software and tried a few curves. The extra bass sounded awfully unnatural on the sort of music I listen to. I certainly, personally, do NOT find a 10dB ramp over the audible FR to sound natural in my room, so being absolute about this sort of thing, which seems to be, sadly, becoming a foundation of this forums pov, is a great shame.
That is just my experience though.
 

MZKM

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I think we should recognise that this is a general conclusion from a mix of listeners.
When Amir did his article about Audyssey I bought the software and tried a few curves. The extra bass sounded awfully unnatural on the sort of music I listen to. I certainly, personally, do NOT find a 10dB ramp over the audible FR to sound natural in my room, so being absolute about this sort of thing, which seems to be, sadly, becoming a foundation of this forums pov, is a great shame.
That is just my experience though.
Harman did some testing, and “trained” listeners did prefer less of a boost than the average listener, but they still liked some boost.

Our ears have evolved to account for room acoustics, so people don’t sound totally different when in a room and outside (we can hear a difference, but we ignore it when not thinking about it). And in a room, our voice gets a bit of a bass boost, so completely flat bass will sound a bit bass shy.

And we do need a while to adjust to difference “references” in order to do comparisons. If you’ve ever calibrated a television you for sure know that people will complain that it looks too yellow, it’s just their eyes getting adjusted (hell, there used to be news/blog articles every year when the new iPhone came out saying the screen has a yellow tint and random people were falsely explaining it as the glue drying, when measurements showed it was getting closer to D65 every year, and in recent years the improvements needed are minor so it’s not as noticeable).

I just got a pair of Koss KSC75’s because besides having almost no bass, Crinicale’s measurements show it follows the Harman curve super closely, and it’s <$15 so why not. It indeed sounds very good, and I can live with the bass, but if that’s the only way I listening to music for a while, going back to headphones with neutral bass will actually sound overly bassy for a while.
 
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tuga

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It can be called “flat” down to 50Hz. Keep in mind though we don’t like bass that is flat in room, 20Hz should be at least ~5dB higher than 1kHz, which in turn should be somewhere around 5dB higher than 20kHz.

If one looks at the preference curves trained listeners (the half a dozen which participated in the test) prefer a slight 2dB bump in the sub-bass region (below 75Hz).
Untrained listeners prefer a boom-tchiiiiz kind of sound but what do they know.

FdahwPU.png
 

BYRTT

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I think we should recognise that this is a general conclusion from a mix of listeners.
When Amir did his article about Audyssey I bought the software and tried a few curves. The extra bass sounded awfully unnatural on the sort of music I listen to. I certainly, personally, do NOT find a 10dB ramp over the audible FR to sound natural in my room, so being absolute about this sort of thing, which seems to be, sadly, becoming a foundation of this forums pov, is a great shame.
That is just my experience though.
Fair enough, as far as i understand the slope down as frequency increase is at 2-3 meters distance so if for example one measure at 1 meter slope should be less tilted or not and longer distances than 3 meters can happen be bit more tilted to sound their best, some close ideal target should be a strait line tilt of 0,7dB/oct that can be drawn on paper or electronic graphs its +3,5dB crossing 30Hz point and -3,5dB crossing 30kHz point both are relative to line will cross 1kHz at 0dB and this slope is not far from Toole's/Harman trained listener curve or the Bruel & Kjær curve, that said if system is true omni PIR and power response is as flat as on axis is so if system spread bit wider than normal its natural target curve should tilt less than those 10dB ramp you were suggested.
 

Joppe Peelen

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~3dB vs 5dB; still, a negative slope.


but toole says .. there should not be even a discussion about a flat response. although people do... . i mean if i record something i wish it came out as i recorded it, still people want some sort of falling response, even toole has his own ideas about that. it depends on how stuff is recorded to begin with. using mics like cardiods that will NOT record low end depending on how they are used, or to much depending on how they are used. then you got a sound engineer pissing over it and then once more a producer pissing all over it because radio/cars/laptops etc. all using there own speakers/room or worse. so i wonder how these tests are conducted to begin with.
it should be 1 in 1 out. but i never happens. i wonder how much we tailor a good response to whatver whas in the chain to make it acceptable (to that person and room and speakers)
 
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MZKM

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but toole says .. there should not be even a discussion about a flat response. although people do... . i mean if i record something i wish it came out as i recorded it, still people want some sort of falling response, even toole has his own ideas about that. it depends on how stuff is recorded to begin with. using mics like cardiods that will NOT record low end depending on how they are used, or to much depending on how they are used. then you got a sound engineer pissing over it and then once more a producer pissing all over it because radio/cars/laptops etc. all using there own speakers/room or worse. so i wonder how these tests are conducted to begin with.
it should be 1 in 1 out. but i never happens. i wonder how much we tailor a good response to whatver whas in the chain to make it acceptable (to that person and room and speakers)
You want a falling response because that is reproducing it as it was recorded. Flat indoors is not the same as flat outdoors, our brains have adapted to how enclosed spaces alter sounds, thus we can ignore it if it’s not egregious, so if you have a sound be flat indoors, that is not how those instruments would naturally sound indoors, thus it doesn’t sound as accurate.
 

Joppe Peelen

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You want a falling response because that is reproducing it as it was recorded. Flat indoors is not the same as flat outdoors, our brains have adapted to how enclosed spaces alter sounds, thus we can ignore it if it’s not egregious, so if you have a sound be flat indoors, that is not how those instruments would naturally sound indoors, thus it doesn’t sound as accurate.


????? whaaat. its not about how they sound. i am not tailoring my mics for an instrument (by the way when are they recorded outside or in a complete free field situation, never ). you could change the color but thats called am artistic choice. if your mic records 100% flat !! whats the deal ? you want it to be reproduced 100% flat. but here we get on the points in mentioned above. since often the mic choice does not allow a flat recording depending on the distance.... and room. adn we all know we change all these factors choosing crappy guitar amp, different mics just to get what the artist wants/ if it is correct or not. thats called making music. but then the question arises. what should our speakers do ?

probable reproduce what they decided on on the final mix. even with all these shortcommings of the producer pissing over there masterpiece.. should sound ok on a laptop or in a car, or on the radio... etc

so listending tests dont say much. unless the recording is done in a way to capture the way it was when they where playing... hardly ever done.
 
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Vasr

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The PIR always is a bit lower in the bass. It is more representative of those people who have their speakers like 5ft off the front wall.

The distortion graphs are done in-room, but near-field (Amir did the original tweeter axis, so ignore the treble region):
index.php


It can be called “flat” down to 50Hz. Keep in mind though we don’t like bass that is flat in room, 20Hz should be at least ~5dB higher than 1kHz, which in turn should be somewhere around 5dB higher than 20kHz.
If the PIR represents speaker at 5ft/1.5m from the front wall then it's useless for those of us in the UK and in many European homes.

The actual in-room response does indeed look closer to JA's LW plot yet different from the PIR.
It is not wrong to conclude that the PIR plot does not reflect the IR of dipole speakers with the necessary accuracy.

So much of this ambiguity/debate could have been avoided by doing a one minute RTA sweep at MLP using REW as a sanity check on the Klippel and near-field measurements and to set the context of what the listening test was actually hearing. To supplement the other measurements.

I strongly suspect that this measurement would have shown something similar to the SMGa measurement I posted earlier but with relatively flat (but not necessarily smooth) extension down to 50hz instead of the 100hz and likely a less of a hump around 300hz.

My take based on my interpretation of the data available for the LRS so far and some experience with the small Magnepans:

The LRS is just fine as is for acoustic, small band, chamber music, jazz trios, etc. Or if your hearing/sensing ability is falling off faster than the speaker below 50hz. EQ any measured hump around 300hz down if it feels a bit low-mid heavy relative to high treble hiding the upper details. Use its attenuation resistors if it sounds too bright to your ears.

For bigger ensembles, clean music with content with details in the extended low, supplement with a sub crossed over at 60hz, and optionally EQ a small room gain as preferred (by keeping the sub at a slightly higher volume relatively)

For HT, rock/pop/metal, etc., supplement with sub crossed over at 80hz, sub dialed in higher to have a 3db-6db room gain and smooth out the downward slope with EQ.

It will hold its own within any speaker in its price range (including any required stands for book shelf speakers, subs, etc). Subjectively, it might even sound better depending on one's tastes and room.

The main downside of these small Maggies is that it cannot be optimized to do well in more than one of the above categories of music if you listen to mixed genres.

To get appreciably better experience or versatility, you would likely need to go to the $1k+ range either with the Maggies or something else. Or you can live with these for decades as many Maggie owners do.
 

Frank Dernie

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Our ears have evolved to account for room acoustics, so people don’t sound totally different when in a room and outside (we can hear a difference, but we ignore it when not thinking about it). And in a room, our voice gets a bit of a bass boost, so completely flat bass will sound a bit bass shy.
I know all this.
We hear "through" the room.
That is why our impression of a peaky measured bass looks much worse than it sounds IME, our ears compensate, or at least mine do. :)
 

BYRTT

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but toole says .. there should not be even a discussion about a flat response. although people do... . i mean if i record something i wish it came out as i recorded it, still people want some sort of falling response, even toole has his own ideas about that. it depends on how stuff is recorded to begin with. using mics like cardiods that will NOT record low end depending on how they are used, or to much depending on how they are used. then you got a sound engineer pissing over it and then once more a producer pissing all over it because radio/cars/laptops etc. all using there own speakers/room or worse. so i wonder how these tests are conducted to begin with.
it should be 1 in 1 out. but i never happens. i wonder how much we tailor a good response to whatver whas in the chain to make it acceptable (to that person and room and speakers)
You want a falling response because that is reproducing it as it was recorded. Flat indoors is not the same as flat outdoors, our brains have adapted to how enclosed spaces alter sounds, thus we can ignore it if it’s not egregious, so if you have a sound be flat indoors, that is not how those instruments would naturally sound indoors, thus it doesn’t sound as accurate.
For PIR agree MZKM but think per dedicated cooperating speaker system plus room its not nessesary 100% to be one of Toole/Harmans curves but maybe into that area, for example my diy system is omni up to 3600Hz and then PIR plus power response is natural as flat as on axis much higher in frequency than normal sugested targets for most other systems, come to think about when Joppe Peelen talk flat mayby he mean the up front say 0,5-1 meter should be flat where what MZKM and Toole talk about is the in room (PIR) curve at listening position that should be declining as frequency increase..
Joppe_Peelen_target curves.png
 
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Joppe Peelen

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For PIR agree MZKM but think per dedicated cooperating speaker system plus room its not nessesary 100% to be one of Toole/Harmans curves but maybe into that area, for example my diy system is omni up to 3600Hz and then PIR plus power response is natural as flat as on axis much higher in frequency than normal sugested targets for most other systems, come to think about when Joppe Peelen talk flat mayby he mean the up front say 0,5-1 meter should be flat where what MZKM and Toole talk about is the in room (PIR) curve at listening position that should be declining as frequency increase..
View attachment 85056


:) well i meant what i said. no offence:) its rather simple if i record something i want 1:1 at my listening position. i really have no clue whats weird about that. where it goes wrong is that we as people that like to make speakers can make stuff depending on preferences like the roll off. or ask what happened in the recording to begin with. i know noone is gone change the recording industry. but well it is recorded with either omni's (loads of low end pressure sensitive) some dipoles like big membrane vocal mics ribbon/condenser or whatever at a distance that has nothing to do with real life, adding proximity through the roof. or some cardiods/dipole to far away not having much low end. then we mix that on speakers of witch many already have thise curve of roll off baked into them. thejn we are gone play them back on speakers that have this same curve..... resulting in far more rolloff then it should have been. there are just to many things going on to do listening tests if you dont know how it was recorded or mixed. best bet would be AB set of omni's in a room recording a small band. and dont add or substract crapm in the mix, and see how that goes. on a flat speaker.

downside , you get allot of room acoustics... but hell thats the way it is.
 

BYRTT

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:) well i meant what i said. no offence:) its rather simple if i record something i want 1:1 at my listening position. i really have no clue whats weird about that. where it goes wrong is that we as people that like to make speakers can make stuff depending on preferences like the roll off. or ask what happened in the recording to begin with. i know noone is gone change the recording industry. but well it is recorded with either omni's (loads of low end pressure sensitive) some dipoles like big membrane vocal mics ribbon/condenser or whatever at a distance that has nothing to do with real life, adding proximity through the roof. or some cardiods/dipole to far away not having much low end. then we mix that on speakers of witch many already have thise curve of roll off baked into them. thejn we are gone play them back on speakers that have this same curve..... resulting in far more rolloff then it should have been. there are just to many things going on to do listening tests if you dont know how it was recorded or mixed. best bet would be AB set of omni's in a room recording a small band. and dont add or substract crapm in the mix, and see how that goes. on a flat speaker.

downside , you get allot of room acoustics... but hell thats the way it is.
:) Thanks thump up you like to use own brain to think and analyze about stuff yourself, that said if preference curve is so that in room at listening position (same as estimated in room - predicted in room PIR in Amir's spinorama graphs) say at 3 meters distance is flat sound then up front nearfield would be a very hot bright curve, about mix and mastering tecnic think many do that job in nearfield where monitor response is natural flat but dont hang me up on it, but i do know my own system is trimmed to sound natural at listening position @84-86dB SPL and includes digital correction for equal louness curves ISO226/2003 as SPL is dialed lower, curve is relative declining as frequency increase at listening position and if one walk from listening position up to say within half a meter tonality feel close the same but from within 1 meter or so resolution into the recording room of the played track material increase a notch or two.
 

BYRTT

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I agree that the off-axis response is far from smooth but this is somewhat mitigated by the narrow dispersion.

I also wrote earlier that the LRSs would work well if complemented by dipole bass units and preferably listened midfield to avoid the high distortion at high SPLs.

Directivity is narrow yes including lower frequency but spray of non even dispersion sits so close to listener, animations is comparison of LRS relative narrow horizontal window +20º to -20º, now compare dynamics of that output to same on axis response for 8341A below it that looks static in camparison..

LRS horizontal dispersion window +20 to -20º..
Tuga_HOR_LRS_x1x1x1x1x1_1000mS.gif

Genelec 8341A horizontal dispersion window +20 to -20º and EQed to same on axis response as above..
Tuga_HOR_8341_x1x1x1x1x1_1000mS.gif




LRS vertical dispersion window +10 to -10º..
Tuga_VER_LRS_x1x1x1_1000mS.gif

Genelec 8341A vertical dispersion window +10 to -10º and EQed to same on axis response as above..
Tuga_VER_8341_x1x1x1_1000mS.gif
 
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tuga

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Directivity is narrow yes including lower frequency but spray of non even dispersion sits so close to listener, animations is comparison of LRS relative narrow horizontal window +20º to -20º, now compare dynamics of that output to same on axis response for 8341A below it that looks static in camparison..

LRS horizontal dispersion window +20 to -20º..
View attachment 85072
Genelec 8341A horizontal dispersion window +20 to -20º and EQed to same on axis response as above..
View attachment 85073



LRS vertical dispersion window +10 to -10º..
View attachment 85077
Genelec 8341A vertical dispersion window +10 to -10º and EQed to same on axis response as above..
View attachment 85078

Worse than I imagined. Thanks!
 

Thomas savage

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I know all this.
We hear "through" the room.
That is why our impression of a peaky measured bass looks much worse than it sounds IME, our ears compensate, or at least mine do. :)
for me this holds true until you get pronounced room modes , the massive uplift in a certain bass frequency can be really distracting IME .

And yes we are becoming way way too absolutist! Alas people find security and comfort in certainty. We don't want a anti thought , brainwashed user base.
 

Vini darko

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Directivity is narrow yes including lower frequency but spray of non even dispersion sits so close to listener, animations is comparison of LRS relative narrow horizontal window +20º to -20º, now compare dynamics of that output to same on axis response for 8341A below it that looks static in camparison..

LRS horizontal dispersion window +20 to -20º..
View attachment 85072
Genelec 8341A horizontal dispersion window +20 to -20º and EQed to same on axis response as above..
View attachment 85073



LRS vertical dispersion window +10 to -10º..
View attachment 85077
Genelec 8341A vertical dispersion window +10 to -10º and EQed to same on axis response as above..
View attachment 85078
Extra points for including panthers with the animations.
 

LarryRS

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No. Doesn't invalidate anything I said, though; if that's the high-fidelity part that warranted that reply, I've rarely seen/read a Magnepan owner who wasn't listening to his speaker instead of music through it.
Sorry - it invalidates EVERYTHING you've said. I've owned many pairs of Magnepans for many years. I attend 30-40 live concerts every year. I listen to a lot of music through my Magnepans, KEFs, Totems and KLH's. Passing judgement on speakers you have never heard is simply nonsensical. Revelling in one's ignorance is an interesting way to make a point. To quote Benjamin Franklin, "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."
 

Blumlein 88

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:) well i meant what i said. no offence:) its rather simple if i record something i want 1:1 at my listening position. i really have no clue whats weird about that. where it goes wrong is that we as people that like to make speakers can make stuff depending on preferences like the roll off. or ask what happened in the recording to begin with. i know noone is gone change the recording industry. but well it is recorded with either omni's (loads of low end pressure sensitive) some dipoles like big membrane vocal mics ribbon/condenser or whatever at a distance that has nothing to do with real life, adding proximity through the roof. or some cardiods/dipole to far away not having much low end. then we mix that on speakers of witch many already have thise curve of roll off baked into them. thejn we are gone play them back on speakers that have this same curve..... resulting in far more rolloff then it should have been. there are just to many things going on to do listening tests if you dont know how it was recorded or mixed. best bet would be AB set of omni's in a room recording a small band. and dont add or substract crapm in the mix, and see how that goes. on a flat speaker.

downside , you get allot of room acoustics... but hell thats the way it is.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-giveaway-for-asr-members.16286/#post-526712

Here is something you'll be interested in. Mario Martinez records in one location with a purist pair of microphones and lays down the tracks with no processing. They've been trying to get best mic position and various other factors right so you can get the closest possible facsimile reproduced when you play it back. Mr. Martinez kindly lets us here on ASR get a free copy of one of his recordings from time to time in exchange for our feedback on it. These are nice recordings with some very good musicians. How can you lose? Go to the thread above and tell him you would like a code to get a free copy.
 

Blumlein 88

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Just a reminder as some seem to be confusing some issues again.

No use arguing with the Klippel results. They are accurately done as if you did them in an anechoic chamber. For monopole, bipole, dipole or broken drive-in theater squawk box they are accurate.

In room measures like REW will have a downward slope because of an artifact of doing measurements that way. If you had the world's perfect speaker with absolute amplifier flat response in an anechoic chamber, and used REW to measure it on axis in the listening room, the result would slope about 3 db/decade or a bit less than 1 db/octave.

In between those you expect due to room gain and possible other factors for the low end below a room's schroeder frequency to be elevated a few db vs the anechoic result.

JA's testing is quasi-anechoic and you have to combine woofer close up measures with the rest and guestimate how to append the low end. There have been a number of knowledgeable people critical of how JA does this. His low ends seem to be too elevated in general over many speakers.

Here is a nice white paper on the topic.
http://audio.claub.net/software/FRD_Blender/White Paper - Accurate In-Room Frequency Response to 10Hz.pdf

BYRTT, MZKM, edechamps, and of course Amir give you these wonderful graphs of how things work that aren't available anywhere else.

Audiophiles are often critical of objectivist audiophiles saying we don't everything there is to know about sound. For most of our gear that isn't a transducer there isn't any mystery. Loudspeakers however is an area where there are still some questions. But don't throw out the great data at our disposal because your sacred ox is gored by results. And remember, I own big panel speakers. So I know how you feel.
 
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