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I'm tired of audiophile and high fidelity confusion.

killdozzer

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Further common place of audiophile world is that it is always audiophiles who will fight the label. Hifists don't really mind it and more often you'll see that hifists chose the label for themselves as it helps simplify and clarify things right from the start.

Audiophiles OTOH will fight it fiercely from time to time being fully aware there’s always a note of gullible pink prose attached.

For the most part this is just a waste of time. It’s what you do in the end, not whether you like how someone labels you. Fine, you’re not an audiophile, but you cables are all an inch thick. Your stands cost more than some capable and accurate speakers. Every component you own has an equivalent in a much cheaper component that performs equally well. You went for the 5k more expensive pair of speakers and still didn’t do EQ.

Whether you like the word or not... doesn’t make much difference.

However, not to lay it heavily on the audiophiles, if I ever come across a single one of them who’ll say “none of the above have I done expecting results in SQ, but because I care about beauty and visual appearance of something I gotta live with is very important to me” I’d shake his hand. I haven’t heard that sentence ever.
 

Wombat

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HiFi(high fidelity) never meant the best technical performance possible but enough to be able to more closely reproduce the currently available higher fidelity recordings.

An audiophile was someone interested in HiFi.

(At least as far back as the 1950s, as I remember it).

Once the CD arrived HiFi was a done deal. Those who couldn't accept it bastardised the term 'audiophile' to suit their own ends and also tried to push HiFi into the ultrasound zone.

Transducers were and still are(not so much) the limiting factor.
 
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AndyLu

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Further common place of audiophile world is that it is always audiophiles who will fight the label. Hifists don't really mind it and more often you'll see that hifists chose the label for themselves as it helps simplify and clarify things right from the start.

Audiophiles OTOH will fight it fiercely from time to time being fully aware there’s always a note of gullible pink prose attached.

For the most part this is just a waste of time. It’s what you do in the end, not whether you like how someone labels you. Fine, you’re not an audiophile, but you cables are all an inch thick. Your stands cost more than some capable and accurate speakers. Every component you own has an equivalent in a much cheaper component that performs equally well. You went for the 5k more expensive pair of speakers and still didn’t do EQ.

Whether you like the word or not... doesn’t make much difference.

However, not to lay it heavily on the audiophiles, if I ever come across a single one of them who’ll say “none of the above have I done expecting results in SQ, but because I care about beauty and visual appearance of something I gotta live with is very important to me” I’d shake his hand. I haven’t heard that sentence ever.

And there you go generalizing again. You sound like all audiophiles are strange crazy aliens from Mars. In real life things are not that black and white as you paint the picture. There are lots of shades of gray. There is no such thing as 'Hifi' against 'Audiophiles'. That is just some artificial concept in your mind. As already said by different people in this thread (and also on the internet): An audiophile = someone who's hobby is Hi-fi. That can manifest itself in many ways. To paint them all as audiofools as you do is far beyond the thruth and an oversimplification of things.
 
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killdozzer

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Audiophiles produce a vast amount of justification. Sooner or later they are faced with a situation where they can’t recognize the sonic property or some sort of a trait they ascribed to the equipment which then asks for some sort of rationalization.

They simply realize that someone used the shortcomings of human perception apparatus against them and that they have simply been tricked.

After this you have only two options with no exception; you can either admit you’ve been fooled (almost never happens) or you can find some explanation or justification for yourself (this almost always happens). Meaning this is the point where your ego steps in, which makes peddling of the overpriced equipment almost devilishly fiendish!!

All you have to do is con a customer. After that he will become your most fierce defender because he’ll be actually defending his hurt ego and you’ll be covered with that. He’ll find all the explanations you can just sit and relax. It’ll never blow up in your face.

And some of these justifications go so shamelessly far that audiophiles will say if DBT can’t register what they’re hearing, something must be wrong with the DBT.

However, buying sound signatures doesn’t fall into this category. Nevertheless, buying sound signatures has its own shortcomings.

Buying a 15k sound signature amp or buying a 500$ Denon and a good DSP... I don’t know. I still can’t find the reason for overpaying.

Sure, with old analogue equalizers, you can’t really get a SS transformer amp sound like a tube as it is not a matter of vocalizing your system. It’s closer to an effect like the ones you find for musicians. But with good modern DSP, you might even be able to do that.

Which, again, leaves us with “why overpriced gear?” And again, at least in my case, I’d say because 99% of avrs look like shit. I might have found 4 or 5 that are aesthetically pleasing among billions being produced.
 

MattHooper

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Audiophiles produce a vast amount of justification. Sooner or later they are faced with a situation where they can’t recognize the sonic property or some sort of a trait they ascribed to the equipment which then asks for some sort of rationalization.

They simply realize that someone used the shortcomings of human perception apparatus against them and that they have simply been tricked.

After this you have only two options with no exception; you can either admit you’ve been fooled (almost never happens) or you can find some explanation or justification for yourself (this almost always happens). Meaning this is the point where your ego steps in, which makes peddling of the overpriced equipment almost devilishly fiendish!!

As you say it "almost never happens" and the reason it almost never happens is due to operating on a different epistemology, and that epistemology offers a third way "out" that I believe you are missing.

Roughly stated, the subjective paradigm is to trust your own subjective experience and inferences - measurements and science are suspect (insofar as they don't confirm a subjective impression).

The objective paradigm is, in contrast, to start with the acknowledgement of the unreliability of subjective experience and to appeal to measurements and scientific control of variables to weed out subjective unreliability.

When the subjective audiophile doesn't hear what he hopes to hear from a cable (or whatever), or doesn't hear what some other audiophile claims to hear, the subjective paradigm saves the day: Either it was a case of the cable not making a difference "in my system." Or, more fundamentally, it is simply the case "I don't experience a difference even if you do, and that's fine." In other words "we all have our own experience to guide us, and my negative experience does not count as evidence against your positive experience." They are not operating on a consistent, coherent epistemology, so what looks like dis-confirming evidence is simply fine.

So the subjective audiophile doesn't need to admit that he was fooled at any previous time, nor does he need to produce some "ego-driven" justification. He simply acknowledges "we all have different truths in our experience" and he just moves on to the next tweak in which he may hear a difference.
 

FeddyLost

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Nothing will simply beat, in that case, the exact equipment used in studio during the recording.
Ok, and what will be in case I have just better equipment. More linear, less distortion, etc. Will my rig be "colouring sound" or it's still hi(gher) fidelity?
It's really good question, because hi-end priests suppose that studio equipment is just mediocre approximation to hi-end due to budget limitations.
I think it's at least one of reasons of confusion.
 

killdozzer

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Ultimately, there's a degree of dishonesty when it comes to audiophiles giving advice.

They are always about “me, me, me,” “I hear, I don’t hear, I have my own taste, my taste is different”, it’s all subjectivity, subjectivity, subjectivity. My ears, my ears, they are different, we all hear different.

But then they go on and on about the “brand-puzzle” – you can’t combine Naim with Raidho, that won’t work or you can’t power Ascendo with Yamaha, Yamaha is not even high end...

So, in the end, you come to a conclusion that it’s not so much about not accepting some standards or measurements, it’s about imposing their own choices onto other and having their own personal choices taken as a measure of it all. “Look at me; I’m the final arbiter of all things audio”. I'm too refined for standards and measuring equipment.

It’s all steeped in ego. It’s always libidinal. Even the initial con works on the same principle, as the sales pitch go: “you’re the reason we need such exclusive cables, if someone tells you there’s no difference it’s just that they can’t hear it, but you hear it cause you’re special and you ears are special, and they are special to us, we understand such delicate, noble, artistic souls can’t listen to mid-fi filth, and that’s why we make such high-end products, we cater to your exceptionalism”

It’s just ego stroking. They all still just play “Take Five” over and over again.
 

Wombat

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For a person uniformed/educated in the science/physics of audio who believes he/she knows better than established knowledge/practice to push an opinion without providing validation of the view. That is ego and/or ignorance.

It even afflicts some who should know better.
 
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Jimbob54

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Ultimately, there's a degree of dishonesty when it comes to audiophiles giving advice.

They are always about “me, me, me,” “I hear, I don’t hear, I have my own taste, my taste is different”, it’s all subjectivity, subjectivity, subjectivity. My ears, my ears, they are different, we all hear different.

But then they go on and on about the “brand-puzzle” – you can’t combine Naim with Raidho, that won’t work or you can’t power Ascendo with Yamaha, Yamaha is not even high end...

So, in the end, you come to a conclusion that it’s not so much about not accepting some standards or measurements, it’s about imposing their own choices onto other and having their own personal choices taken as a measure of it all. “Look at me; I’m the final arbiter of all things audio”. I'm too refined for standards and measuring equipment.

It’s all steeped in ego. It’s always libidinal. Even the initial con works on the same principle, as the sales pitch go: “you’re the reason we need such exclusive cables, if someone tells you there’s no difference it’s just that they can’t hear it, but you hear it cause you’re special and you ears are special, and they are special to us, we understand such delicate, noble, artistic souls can’t listen to mid-fi filth, and that’s why we make such high-end products, we cater to your exceptionalism”

It’s just ego stroking. They all still just play “Take Five” over and over again.

Or you could just not go to places where these people hang out and be blissfully unaware.
 
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mhardy6647

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Not sure if it's been mentioned yet in this thread, but the difference is simple.
There'a a movie called High Fidelity.
There's never been (nor will there ever be) a movie called Audiophile.

1601122443883.png


Although, upon reflection, Paul Giamatti would be a natural choice to star in it. ;)

1601122313206.png
 

Jimbob54

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Not sure if it's been mentioned yet in this thread, but the difference is simple.
There'a a movie called High Fidelity.
There's never been (nor will there ever be) a movie called Audiophile.

View attachment 84899

Although, upon reflection, Paul Giamatti would be a natural choice to star in it. ;)

View attachment 84898

One solitary beer in that room.
 

raistlin65

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I am repeatedly amused by the fact that members of this forum cast audiophiles as this "other." When to the rest of the non-audiophile world, pretty much everyone here in ASR would be considered an audiophile. lol
 

Jimbob54

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I am repeatedly amused by the fact that members of this forum cast audiophiles as this "other." When to the rest of the non-audiophile world, pretty much everyone here in ASR would be considered an audiophile. lol

Its what makes the whole tribal O vs S thing so very 8th grade. Like watching Warhammer or D&D nerds getting all hot under the collar. We were all the guys bullied at school
 

raistlin65

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Its what makes the whole tribal O vs S thing so very 8th grade. Like watching Warhammer or D&D nerds getting all hot under the collar. We were all the guys bullied at school

I have no problem with people ripping on subjectivists for buying into snake oil products.

But I'm an objectivist and an audiophile. And proud of it!
 

Jimbob54

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I have no problem with people ripping on subjectivists for buying into snake oil products.

But I'm an objectivist and an audiophile. And proud of it!

I prefer to stop at ripping into snake oil products and their creators. And maybe people who come here touting their merits without a shred of evidence. The folks who pay £6000 for a DAC that measures significantly worse than a £200 one just deserve a raised eyebrow and a "uh huh" .
 

raistlin65

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I prefer to stop at ripping into snake oil products and their creators. And maybe people who come here touting their merits without a shred of evidence. The folks who pay £6000 for a DAC that measures significantly worse than a £200 one just deserve a raised eyebrow and a "uh huh" .

Yeah. If it's their own money, that's fine.

But then over on reddit, You get people telling someone they shouldn't buy a $200 amp/DAC stack for $1,000 headphones. That it is not good enough.

If one points out the independent measurement benefits of a good $200 amp / DAC stack, and the snooty audiophile continues to insists that you need to spend more money quality headphones, I think it's fair game to start ripping into them.
 
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Jimbob54

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Yeah. If it's their own money, that's fine.

But then over on reddit, You get people telling someone they shouldn't buy a $200 amp/DAC stack for $1,000 headphones. That it is not good enough.

If one points out the independent measurement benefits of a good $200 amp / DAC stack, and the snooty audiophile continues to insists that you need to spend more money quality headphones, I think it's fair game to start ripping into them.
Tru dat. Over there of course.
 
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MattHooper

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Ultimately, there's a degree of dishonesty when it comes to audiophiles giving advice.

They are always about “me, me, me,” “I hear, I don’t hear, I have my own taste, my taste is different”, it’s all subjectivity, subjectivity, subjectivity. My ears, my ears, they are different, we all hear different.

But then they go on and on about the “brand-puzzle” – you can’t combine Naim with Raidho, that won’t work or you can’t power Ascendo with Yamaha, Yamaha is not even high end...

So, in the end, you come to a conclusion that it’s not so much about not accepting some standards or measurements, it’s about imposing their own choices onto other and having their own personal choices taken as a measure of it all. “Look at me; I’m the final arbiter of all things audio”. I'm too refined for standards and measuring equipment.

It’s all steeped in ego. It’s always libidinal. Even the initial con works on the same principle, as the sales pitch go: “you’re the reason we need such exclusive cables, if someone tells you there’s no difference it’s just that they can’t hear it, but you hear it cause you’re special and you ears are special, and they are special to us, we understand such delicate, noble, artistic souls can’t listen to mid-fi filth, and that’s why we make such high-end products, we cater to your exceptionalism”

It’s just ego stroking. They all still just play “Take Five” over and over again.

One could also point to the ego-stroking pleasure of dissing "audiophiles." ;-)
We're all human.
 
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