My waf dipole speaker design. Waffle.

[Ardacer]

This is the first, very crude mock-up of how my full range dipole design transducer might and probably will look.

First measure is in cm, the other is in inches.
All 16 of the drivers and amps are on their way. Full vibration cancelling in the sub box. No rocking the neighbors or resonances in the upper baffle. Theoretical maximum spl of 100 db - ish.
Will build it and measure it.
I'll power it with 16 D-class amps. Just how I roll.
I think that for a full 20-20k dipole/quasi dipole speaker, this is very slim. Even for a regular speaker, this is small.
It should be as powerful or even more so than the lx521, possibly with better dipole behaviour.
I say all this fully aware that this is my first design, I am nowhere near the genius that is SL, and I sound stupid to myself saying it. But that's what calculations suggest. We'll see. In any case, I do own a pair of lx521, so I can compare.
For added WAF, the whole thing could easily be made into a black slim monolith with acoustically transparent black screen.

 

[gene_stl]

I think you will be amazed at how that will sound. I was a very early fan of SL but actually if you have a four way quad amped system using reasonably selected drivers and laid out in a reasonable fashion (which SLs series of speakers were always reasonable) it is actually hard to make a system that sounds bad. It will outperfom 99% of the overpriced systems out there.

I became less of a fan of SL when I realized he had fallen under the evil influence of Nelson Pass and was charging "licensing fees" for a simple crossover network which was advertised as more complex than it probably really is. Modern DSPs make anything you want childs play. Also high prices for plans. You do all the work and he gets a licensing fee for something you are improving on.

For WAF use veneers or designer formica. That latter forms a laminate that stiffens and deadens the surfaces.

Even in te 1970s I considered building my speakers as either dipoles or omni radiators but finally decided on a line source configuration.

What drivers did you decide to use? I am always interested in very high quality drivers for relatively bargain prices. These days drivers have gotten so expensive that you can buy Yamaha Be drivers used for competitive prices. Current fleabay rules make it pretty safe to do so.

I am about to build a center channel to go with my stereo (now FL and FR ) speakers. It will look something like your design above but will only be a
three way and only need to go down as far as 80 -100 hz the rest being taken care of by multiple subs and a low frequency channel.

 

[Ardacer]

Thanks for the advice! Yes, DSP is amazing. These are all SB acoustics drivers. Really only them and SEAS in the reasonable price range for the very low end of things, imo. I don't really understand what's wrong with selling the plans for the build itself. Lot of time goes into making these, and SL's website is itself a gem worth paying for. IDK, I like opensource, but it would be nice to get something in return perhaps. I do agree that the price for the plans seems too high. I also agree about Nelson Pass. Didn't research him too much but seems to me he's selling mumbo jumbo from what I saw so I lost interest.
I'd probably sell the plans for my build for about 30-40 usd tops, if I don't release it publicly. Haven't decided yet. That's if the thing works properly.
Good luck with your build

 

[gene_stl]

I don't object to charging on principle. (After all we are not communists ) But there really is not any "secret sauce" and his designs used to be free. I felt he may have been lying down with some high end dogs and picked up a few fleas. I imagine they whispered in his ear to "monetize his brand" and I had the impression he might not have done that left to his own devices. I could be totally wrong.

 

[Ardacer]

Possibly.. but why not, the man should get something. But take a look at lx521, the thing is fantastic (there are a few areas of questionable design choice imo). Then take a look at lxmini. The thing supposedly sounds good but it's a real mess. Who is all over the place with lxmini? Nelson Pass.

 

[bluefuzz]

The thing supposedly sounds good but it's a real mess

In what way is it a mess? It's not the prettiest speaker in the world but that was the whole point of the design to be able to be built by anyone from easily available parts and without specialised tools. It can be made a lot prettier if you feel so inclined. As for Nelson Pass, I don't have any issue with him. He does what he does. I've never been much interested in his DIY designs or his expensive amps, but a lot of people like his stuff. He also seems very helpful over on the DIYaudio site.

I built Pass's analogue crossover for the LXmini – more for practical reasons than for any perceived audio qualities – but it sounds fine, and why wouldn't it?

 

[tomtoo]

Do i get it right? A 5 way dipole design?
Thats a challenge!

 

[Ardacer]

It's just a 4way

 

[Ardacer]

In what way is it a mess? It's not the prettiest speaker in the world but that was the whole point of the design to be able to be built by anyone from easily available parts and without specialised tools. It can be made a lot prettier if you feel so inclined. As for Nelson Pass, I don't have any issue with him. He does what he does. I've never been much interested in his DIY designs or his expensive amps, but a lot of people like his stuff. He also seems very helpful over on the DIYaudio site.

I built Pass's analogue crossover for the LXmini – more for practical reasons than for any perceived audio qualities – but it sounds fine, and why wouldn't it?

Looks are fine. Build materials are fine too. The premise is fine. Look, nobody likes SL more than I do, really, the guy was top of the top.

But, the mini is weird. It's omni into cardioid into dipole into quasidipole into directed all in one, and in weird frequency bands. All the possible radiation patterns, mashed together in a strange, not so sensible way, honestly... You would want omni for the very bottom end, not all the way up into mids. You'd want cardioid or dipole bass, not cardioid to dipole mids mash. You'd want CD or dipole mids, and same for highs. Mini is all over the place, something apparent (I don't own minis so can't say from my experience, just what I read from others) while walking around the room or even just getting up from the seat. Unlike lx521, it has a sweetspot. (narrower)
That said, I'd still own minis rather than regular box speakers unless they are very nice CD.

I don't think Pass made a bad analog xo for minis. It's perfectly fine.

I just didn't like Pass cause I have the feeling he's a conspiracy theory moon is made of cheese type of guy, well versed in science and engineering yet somehow still selling magic tricks.

 

[Biblob]

Very interesting! Will you measure it too?

Maybe a crazy idea: sending one Amir for measuring it on the Klippel? It seems it would be a challenge because of the build. But the insights it would give on the speaker would be the best possible one.

 

[Burning Sounds]

I don't object to charging on principle. (After all we are not communists ) But there really is not any "secret sauce" and his designs used to be free. I felt he may have been lying down with some high end dogs and picked up a few fleas. I imagine they whispered in his ear to "monetize his brand" and I had the impression he might not have done that left to his own devices. I could be totally wrong.

You are.

 

[bluefuzz]

But, the mini is weird.

Well, again, that was rather the point of the design wasn't it? To – quite literally – think outside the box. The mini might be 'weird' from a traditional speaker perspective but it does nevertheless sound very good and is almost universally praised by anyone who hears them. Not that they don't have their limitations, but you really should listen to a pair before judging the design 'a mess' ...

Unlike lx521, it has a sweetspot.

How do you know if you haven't heard them? The first thing that struck me about the LXminis after I set them up is that they have much less of a sweet spot than traditional box speakers – in my room at least.

 

[Ardacer]

Well, again, that was rather the point of the design wasn't it? To – quite literally – think outside the box. The mini might be 'weird' from a traditional speaker perspective but it does nevertheless sound very good and is almost universally praised by anyone who hears them. Not that they don't have their limitations, but you really should listen to a pair before judging the design 'a mess' ...


How do you know if you haven't heard them? The first thing that struck me about the LXminis after I set them up is that they have much less of a sweet spot than traditional box speakers – in my room at least.

Seems to me you don't read my posts fully, or don't understand them. I have said that I do not own the minis and that therefore my opinion or knoweledge is of less worth. I know this. I said it. No need to act like I don't and try to educate me to something I already know, for whatever purpose it fits you. I never attacked the mini. It's not strange that they have wider sweetspot than conventional boxes. Conventional box is the worst anyway. People who heard both lx521 and mini say mini's are impressive and you can hear a significant timbre change if you stand up or move around the room, something not happening with lx521 (which I do own).

I attribute this to the weird design choice, dispersion characteristics wise (a mess, if you will). It's the reason I didn't make them myself, and I usually really like sl and johnk stuff, gainphile, etc. a lot. I even said that I like how they look, the idea, the materials, etc. It's a very cool idea and speaker. It's still a dispersion mess, no amount of love for it or sl will change that fact.

I have no doubt they sound very good, and can aprechiate them for what they are.

Still a dispersion mess

 

[Ardacer]

Very interesting! Will you measure it too?

Maybe a crazy idea: sending one Amir for measuring it on the Klippel? It seems it would be a challenge because of the build. But the insights it would give on the speaker would be the best possible one.

I'll measure them.

I'd LOVE for people to hear them and do their measurements on them, Amir ofcourse included.
As you said, it'd be a challenge... but we'll see, maybe it's possible somehow.

 

[bluefuzz]

Seems to me you don't read my posts fully

Nor you mine quite obviously ...

Still a dispersion mess

Whatever ...

 

[tomtoo]

It's just a 4way

With 4 way it was so hard to come to 16 drivers seeing the picture, so i thought 5 way.

With 4 way i have no idear how 16 drivers come?

 

[Ardacer]

Nor you mine quite obviously ...

Whatever ...

Whatever...
makes you happy my friend, makes me happy. Enjoy your mini's.

 

[gene_stl]

Once you get as far as a four way or a good three way with a good subwoofer and multi amp it properly it is going to sound better than most commercially built home speaker systems. Eliminating the passive high level crossover with all of its compromises for production and cost, its huge inefficiencies especially three way and up and its bad effects on such driver damping as the amp may be able to provide when wired that way and you get your system into the higher levels of listening enjoyment if your room isn't too bad.

Five way systems are usually four ways with a super tweeter. There isn't much content up there nor are there very many drivers that can reproduce and disperse into the room those frequencies. Most folks don't hear them too well either. Especially folks old enough to afford such systems. But hey knock yourself out if you wanna.

On another forum I was trying to help someone who had been given a pair of Infinity Kappa Nine s from the eighties. It is a five way system that comes from the factory with links on the back so you can bi amp the two twelve inch wooofers. And from a crossover standpoint you could almost consider it a six way because it has its own crossover circuit arm for the rearward radiating emit tweeter. I was trying to help him to tri amp it with one amp driving the wooofers and one for the mid bass mid range and a third for the tweeters and super tweeters. But he was going to end up spending more trouble money and aggravation to restore the "magic" of the original eighties high level passive crossover. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink if he has already had some other kool aid. The thread had opened because he was looking for an amp to drive their famously gyrating impedance curve. Multi Amp and the problem and many others solved.

Every speaker system involves compromises. It is in the nature of the beast. They are unavoidable. DIY speaker builders can avoid some of the compromises that commercial vendors have to make and put their funds into actual speaker materials value rather than dealer margin , distributor margin, and manufacturer margin. This was true in the seventies when I built my system and it is even truer now that prices have gone beyond all reason. I do understand that it is expensive to be in business and the purpose of business is to continue and make a profit. But that does not lead to the best speaker systems usually and especially not to speaker systems that any normal person can afford. The high end is trying to make audio salons into yacht stores. DIYers also get to pick the exact compromises they are willing to make. This is the province of the more knowledgeable audiophile.

Our ears are NOT good measuring instruments. The psychoacoustic phenom of accomodation means you will get used to and even like things that won't measure well on Amir's Klippel system. The LRS from Magnepan is a recent example. There was a whole lot of raving (even from some more knowledgeable people) about how good they sound. Here in my area a very experienced audiophile is making a subwoofer available to go with the LRS. But iirc Amir didn't really recommend them based on his measurements. I happen to have an extremely versatile electronic crossover. Long ago I spent time experimenting with variations of crossover frequency, slope and shelving. I was not able to blind the experiments but I also had no particular expectation bias. I discovered as have others that your ear gets used to things that are very easy to measure, and a lot of different things sound very very good. Which is better? Which is correct? Who knows??

 

[tomtoo]

Once you get as far as a four way or a good three way with a good subwoofer and multi amp it properly it is going to sound better than most commercially built home speaker systems. Eliminating the passive high level crossover with all of its compromises for production and cost, its huge inefficiencies especially three way and up and its bad effects on such driver damping as the amp may be able to provide when wired that way and you get your system into the higher levels of listening enjoyment if your room isn't too bad.

Five way systems are usually four ways with a super tweeter. There isn't much content up there nor are there very many drivers that can reproduce and disperse into the room those frequencies. Most folks don't hear them too well either. Especially folks old enough to afford such systems. But hey knock yourself out if you wanna.

On another forum I was trying to help someone who had been given a pair of Infinity Kappa Nine s from the eighties. It is a five way system that comes from the factory with links on the back so you can bi amp the two twelve inch wooofers. And from a crossover standpoint you could almost consider it a six way because it has its own crossover circuit arm for the rearward radiating emit tweeter. I was trying to help him to tri amp it with one amp driving the wooofers and one for the mid bass mid range and a third for the tweeters and super tweeters. But he was going to end up spending more trouble money and aggravation to restore the "magic" of the original eighties high level passive crossover. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink if he has already had some other kool aid. The thread had opened because he was looking for an amp to drive their famously gyrating impedance curve. Multi Amp and the problem and many others solved.

Every speaker system involves compromises. It is in the nature of the beast. They are unavoidable. DIY speaker builders can avoid some of the compromises that commercial vendors have to make and put their funds into actual speaker materials value rather than dealer margin , distributor margin, and manufacturer margin. This was true in the seventies when I built my system and it is even truer now that prices have gone beyond all reason. I do understand that it is expensive to be in business and the purpose of business is to continue and make a profit. But that does not lead to the best speaker systems usually and especially not to speaker systems that any normal person can afford. The high end is trying to make audio salons into yacht stores. DIYers also get to pick the exact compromises they are willing to make. This is the province of the more knowledgeable audiophile.

Our ears are NOT good measuring instruments. The psychoacoustic phemom of accomodation means you will get used to and even like things that won't measure well on Amir's Klippel system. The LRS from Magnepan is a recent example. There was a whole lot of raving (even from some more knowledgeable people) about how good they sound. Here in my area a very experienced audiophile is making a subwoofer available to go with the LRS. But iirc Amir didn't really recommend them based on his measurements. I happen to have an extremely versatile electronic crossover. Long ago I spent time experimenting with variations of crossover frequency, slope and shelving. I was not able to blind the experiments but I also had no particular expectation bias. I discovered as have others that your ear gets used to things that are very easy to measure, and a lot of different things sound very very good. Which is better? Which is correct? Who knows??

"..Which is better? Which is correct? Who knows??..."

So much wisdom i like to give 10 likes. I have my own “theorie“. At the end counts what YOU enjoy.

 

[Ardacer]

On point, you adapt to a lot. But the nature of the vastly improved soundstage of the proper dipole setup over the boxes is what hooked me up to these things. No going back, cant adapt to that.