ATC Loudspeakers 'Entry' Consumer Series

[watchnerd]

It's a non issue for me the room has a vaulted ceiling and some stone walls; so is not a 'cuboid box'; so no isssues as far as I can tell.

I bought ATC's on the strength of their accuracy because I had become involved in a recording project with a Grammy winning producer/engineer in the USA (that's another story for another day). Anyway I'm highly impressed with them and would say the actives, when you take into account amplification cost (tri amps in each one), are a bit of a bargain.

I think the actives are a good buy in the UK. In the USA, they're definitely very high quality, there is a $6k gap between the passive and the active version. It's a bit of an apples to oranges comparison, but $6k can buy very high quality amplification and still have money left over for an active external DSP crossover (Behringer, dbx, miniDSP, etc) that provides more options than what is built into the SCM40.

Regardless, though, I love the fact ATC, as far as I know, is the only speaker maker where you can get the exact same driver used in the pro monitors -- the SCM40 uses exactly the same midrange and woofer as the SCM25A and SCM45A, and the same midrange as the SCM50A on upwards.

That gets you much closer to hearing what the engineers heard in the studio (if they used ATC).

 

[watchnerd]

Here would be an interesting experiment:

1. Get a Devialet Expert Pro 440, which is capable of dual stereo and has DSP configurable high/low pass filters for each amp (unforunately, it can't do both high and low pass, so a 3 way is out).

2. Get an ATC 2-way passive, like the SC19 v2 or, more cheaply, the pro SCM20 PSL. Disconnect the internal passive crossovers, drive with external active DSP crossover.

3. Optionally, implement SAM (which only effects <150 Hz).

I guess you could also do it with a 3-way if you were willing to have a hybrid active/passive combo.

Hmmmm...

@Frank Dernie maybe you could try this with those old ProAcs in your study

 

[Frank Dernie]

Here would be an interesting experiment:

1. Get a Devialet Expert Pro 440, which is capable of dual stereo and has DSP configurable high/low pass filters for each amp (unforunately, it can't do both high and low pass, so a 3 way is out).

View attachment 8808 View attachment 8809 View attachment 8811

2. Get an ATC 2-way passive, like the SC19 v2 or, more cheaply, the pro SCM20 PSL. Disconnect the internal passive crossovers, drive with external active DSP crossover.

3. Optionally, implement SAM (which only effects <150 Hz).

View attachment 8812

I guess you could also do it with a 3-way if you were willing to have a hybrid active/passive combo.

Hmmmm...

@Frank Dernie maybe you could try this with those old ProAcs in your study

I have considered trying the SAM profile of the ATC SCM 50, and also the SAM profile for Yamaha NS1000 in my bedroom, but in the end I prefer listening to music than dicking around with kit, so I haven't yet sticking to Devialets into Epilogs. I have a friend with modified NS1000s who would like my comments on SAM on them so that is more likely first.

 

[watchnerd]

So I was reading on WBF where AJ (is he still a member) was arguing that ATC's drivers are old school and we've moved on from the days of needing big motor drivers.

On the one hand, most ATC driver designs (except the tweeter) are decades old.

On the other hand, despite advances in material science and measuring, physics hasn't changed.

Thoughts?

 

[Frank Dernie]

A friend of mine is a speaker design consultant in a well known partnership which designs speakers for several manufacturers (confidentially) both high end and mass market, and drive units for big car manufacturers too.
He tells me that producing a low distortion mid range unit is quite easy with modern materials and computer modelling to make it pistonic in the whole passband and have a very linear magnetic circuit, both of these are very rare according to him in most units, particularly the motor. IIRC he told me one of their car drivers costing well under €1 has 1kHz distortion under 0.1%
Pistonic tweeters otoh are very expensive to make and even the pistonic ones are naturally narrow in directivity, so there are still loads of different types out there trying to ameliorate these problems.
Bass units are exceptionally expensive because of size, material and particularly a long travel efficient linear motor is exceedingly expensive.
Traditional materials with damped diaphragms sound "familiar" and don't break up violently and are much cheaper. I am sure the ATC drive units are under continuous scrutiny at ATC. After all they ended up designing a new tweeter a while ago since they felt this had been a weakness.
It would not surprise me to learn that there are theoretically better drivers out there but much better? I doubt it, and their products are probably at the peak of the "old-fashioned" development curve.
Does a Kii use better drive units, or does it rely on other strengths for its aclaimed performance? What about reliability and longevity?
The ATC drivers in my ProAcs are over 30 years old and, if needed, ATC will still service them for a modest cost.
OTOH if the shipping and so forth to the USA are as punitive as in the other direction (US hifi is often 50%+ more expensive here than domestically) maybe a US made alternative would make more sense???

 

[Purité Audio]

I believe Kii and Dutch&Dutch use drivers suitable for the application, then correct any anomalies with DSP, motion feedback etc, the Kii's and D&Ds 8Cs sound clearer because of their cardioid response and ingenious design.
Keith

 

[watchnerd]

I am sure the ATC drive units are under continuous scrutiny at ARC. After all they ended up designing a new tweeter a while ago since they felt this had been a weakness.

What's ARC?

 

[Frank Dernie]

What's ARC?

A typing error.

 

[watchnerd]

A friend of mine is a speaker design consultant in a well known partnership which designs speakers for several manufacturers (confidentially) both high end and mass market, and drive units for big car manufacturers too.
He tells me that producing a low distortion mid range unit is quite easy with modern materials and computer modelling to make it pistonic in the whole passband and have a very linear magnetic circuit, both of these are very rare according to him in most units, particularly the motor.

Here is a very thorough review and set of measurements of the ATC 3" midrange dome:

https://app.box.com/s/j1pwj8exbmioz350nu0n

And here is a paste of the distortion graph from the PDF:

The author says ( I have no idea if this is true):

"In the arena of distortion, this is where the driver really shines. Even though this is an older driver that has
been around for years, and there is nothing particularly advanced in its motor design, its distortion is
exceptionally low pretty much at state of the art levels in the midrange band."

 

[Frank Dernie]

Well the ATC mid dome has been considered SOTA here for decades, I like mine, but is a bit more than €1.
Nearer to £400 for the basic model and £550 for the higher efficiency model last time I looked

 

[watchnerd]

Well the ATC mid dome has been considered SOTA here for decades, I like mine, but is a bit more than €1.
Nearer to £400 for the basic model and £550 for the higher efficiency model last time I looked

As far as I know, the cost is now 'infinity' as they no longer sell individual driver units at all.

 

[Deleted member 65]

As far as I know, the cost is now 'infinity' as they no longer sell individual driver units at all.

Bass units available here http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/atc-63-c.asp

 

[watchnerd]

Bass units available here http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/atc-63-c.asp

Thanks. I haven't seen the SL mid-bass (SB75-150SL), the 3" mid, or the new tweeter anywhere, though.

 

[watchnerd]

For those who are curious, I found a spec sheet for the ATC bass and mid-bass drivers (including the Super Linear SB75-150SL), as well as two sheets for the regular "super" versions of the tweeter (SH25-76 & SH-25-76S):

 

[Frank Dernie]

Bass units available here http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/atc-63-c.asp

I thought Wilmslow had stopped trading. Maybe this is selling existing stock?
AFAIK the new tweeter was never offered for sale.

 

[watchnerd]

So my (previously owned, new to me) Devialet 400 is here, should be setting it up in the next week or two.

Still trying to decide between SCM19 v2 or the SCM20PSL Mk 2.

The pro speakers are $800 cheaper, come only in a black rectangular box, but have the S-version of the tweeter and a lower crossover point at 2.1khz.

Mid-bass drivers and extension the same between the two.

As far as I can tell, the S-tweeter is more sensitive, which is semi moot as the tweeter has to be padded down to the sensitivity of the mid/bass. But the higher sensitivity would allow for same output with less juice, leading to long term better resistance to over heating / power compression....do I care about that as a home user?

Inputs welcome.

 

[Deleted member 65]

So my (previously owned, new to me) Devialet 400 is here, should be setting it up in the next week or two.

Still trying to decide between SCM19 v2 or the SCM20PSL Mk 2.

The pro speakers are $800 cheaper, come only in a black rectangular box, but have the S-version of the tweeter and a lower crossover point at 2.1khz.

Mid-bass drivers and extension the same between the two.

As far as I can tell, the S-tweeter is more sensitive, which is semi moot as the tweeter has to be padded down to the sensitivity of the mid/bass. But the higher sensitivity would allow for same output with less juice, leading to long term better resistance to over heating / power compression....do I care about that as a home user?

Inputs welcome.

If you're into DIY I'd build these instead http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/AT-SW.htm, cabinet from Dayton. Not too much work I think.

Think you'll be happy with the amp. My younger brother had one driving bigger MBL's and was very happy with sq.

 

[Soniclife]

So my (previously owned, new to me) Devialet 400 is here, should be setting it up in the next week or two.

Congrats, interested in what you think subjectively when you get it going. Also interested in the possibility of Amir measuring it, if possible.

No idea about the speaker choice, other than to try and be honest with yourself about the aesthetic part, especially if you think you will own them long term.

 

[watchnerd]

Congrats, interested in what you think subjectively when you get it going. Also interested in the possibility of Amir measuring it, if possible.

I've already used the Dev with two sets of speakers (Martin Logan, Dynaudio). To me it doesn't really sound like anything.

 

[RayDunzl]

Here would be an interesting experiment:

1. Get a Devialet Expert Pro 440 ...

Waaaaaaaa!!!

(that's Japanese for whatever you want it to mean at the time)