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Shouldn't a Phono Stage Be Like a DAC? Why so expensive?

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Cosmik

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Yes, that "kind" of noise. Using "intelligent" software to tailor the playback to your needs and taste after being corrected for distortion that probably wasn't meant to be. This is what for example archival projects do, manually, but I guess "intelligent" software could work pretty well.

Please note, I am not aware of software that does automatically this during playback.
Yes, vinyl has been carefully pre-justified as worthy of a science discussion on the basis of 'different mastering' and maybe 'archiving'. But I keep detecting tendencies for the discussion to head off into territory that is a bit absurd - such as using DSP to clean up vinyl in real time every time it is played, rather than just digitising it once... :) You could still play with all the DSP you like, but you don't need to keep ploughing that needle through that dirty, constantly-degrading groove...
 

svart-hvitt

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For archiving rarities, it's a good post-production exercise for preservation.

For consumer playback -- buy better vinyl!

95% of my vinyl is >180g, recent pressings that have hardly any pops and ticks (unless my static management is bad).

My interest may be a bit esoteric, but say you have played the same record several times (i.e. at least 7, preferably more); then you could tell the computer to average out the information from the phonograph...and play the average of several playbacks...

OK, now we're talking way beyond most consumers' need - but I have a penchant (obsession?) for information vs noise and processes that aim to find the signal.
 

svart-hvitt

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Yes, vinyl has been carefully pre-justified as worthy of a science discussion on the basis of 'different mastering' and maybe 'archiving'. But I keep detecting tendencies for the discussion to head off into territory that is a bit absurd - such as using DSP to clean up vinyl in real time every time it is played, rather than just digitising it once... :) You could still play with all the DSP you like, but you don't need to keep ploughing that needle through that dirty, constantly-degrading groove...

Playing vinyl is a bit like lighting a fire in the fireplace instead of turning on the airconditioner's heating mode, I guess.

People still light a fire and candles sometimes instead of choosing the more efficient ways.

EDIT: And you would still listen to a professional pyro technician for tips on making the perfect fire in the fireplace, wouldn't you? Ancient techniques and moderne science can go hand in hand.
 

Thomas savage

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My interest may be a bit esoteric, but say you have played the same record several times (i.e. at least 7, preferably more); then you could tell the computer to average out the information from the phonograph...and play the average of several playbacks...

OK, now we're talking way beyond most consumers' need - but I have a penchant (obsession?) for information vs noise and processes that aim to find the signal.
If your really worried I'd just rip the record and play the digital version, I guess you could still pretend and get the record out and spin it on your TT:)

Once you have ripped it, maybe you could go though it and edit out anything you did not like.
 

RayDunzl

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My interest may be a bit esoteric, but say you have played the same record several times (i.e. at least 7, preferably more); then you could tell the computer to average out the information from the phonograph...and play the average of several playbacks...

I'd think that would make for some interesting frequency cancellations due to speed variation between plays.

Anyone up to it, just to see?
 
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watchnerd

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My interest may be a bit esoteric, but say you have played the same record several times (i.e. at least 7, preferably more); then you could tell the computer to average out the information from the phonograph...and play the average of several playbacks...

OK, now we're talking way beyond most consumers' need - but I have a penchant (obsession?) for information vs noise and processes that aim to find the signal.

But vinyl degrades on every subsequent play, so this will be a continuously declining target.
 
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watchnerd

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If your really worried I'd just rip the record and play the digital version, I guess you could still pretend and get the record out and spin it on your TT:)

That is effing hilarious!

I'm going to try that at a dinner party next time, when it's terribly inconvenient to keep rushing out to flip over the record, but everyone wants to see the TT in action...
 
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watchnerd

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My interest may be a bit esoteric, but say you have played the same record several times (i.e. at least 7, preferably more); then you could tell the computer to average out the information from the phonograph...and play the average of several playbacks...

OK, now we're talking way beyond most consumers' need - but I have a penchant (obsession?) for information vs noise and processes that aim to find the signal.

I'll tell you why I would never want to do that:

Because I want vinyl to sound like vinyl, including the flaws. It's an exercise in techno-anachronism.

I want it to be a bit lo-fi.

When I want high fidelity, I'll listen to digital.
 

svart-hvitt

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But vinyl degrades on every subsequent play, so this will be a continuously declining target.

Statistically, you'd apply a different weighting scheme to the first playback(s). The subsequent playbacks would be used to fill out possible gaps in the information retrieval process.

I guess it would still sound like vinyl after this process. But who knows? I am curious.
 
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watchnerd

watchnerd

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Statistically, you'd apply a different weighting scheme to the first playback(s). The subsequent playbacks would be used to fill out possible gaps in the information retrieval process.

I guess it would still sound like vinyl after this process. But who knows? I am curious.

To what end and why bother?
 

FrantzM

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Statistically, you'd apply a different weighting scheme to the first playback(s). The subsequent playbacks would be used to fill out possible gaps in the information retrieval process.

I guess it would still sound like vinyl after this process. But who knows? I am curious.
Apologizing for the flippant nature of this reply ... but any or all of those Rube Godlberg contraption come to mind:
 

svart-hvitt

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Apologizing for the flippant nature of this reply ... but any or all of those Rube Godlberg contraption come to mind:

Fantastic!

Rube Goldberg is, by the way, a favorite of mine when I try and explain the KISS concept.

However, it seems like every hobby has its Rube Goldberg complexes. It's as if it's too simple, we go on and create new problems.

Perfecting the phonograph in 2017 seems like a waste for some, while it's a pursuit for others. I guess it's as unpractical as fishing with rod instead of net.
 
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watchnerd

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Perfecting the phonograph in 2017 seems like a waste for some, while it's a pursuit for others. I guess it's as unpractical as fishing with rod instead of net.

That's an interesting analogy.

It makes me think of a quote from a review of the new Technics SL-1200G:

"Speed stability is something relatively easy to measure. In the case of the Technics, precision measurements by Paul Miller were published in HiFi News. The measured speed stability is top class—literally; Miller says that the speed behavior is as good as any he has ever measured. The same is true of the noise measurements. And both of these traits are borne out in listening: You will hear right away how quiet the Technics is and how stable its rotation is. More precisely you will hear the latter ideally with a record that is centered.

It is interesting to read the “fine print,” as it were, of the interview in Issue 264 with Gunther Frohnhoefer, designer of the ne plus ultra Acoustic Signature Invictus, where he remarks that while he could have achieved greater speed stability with direct drive—at extra cost!—in practice the wow from the off-centeredness of almost every record dwarfs the speed precision of good turntables anyway. If you have a disc-centering Nakamichi turntable—I have two—you’d better stick with it."

So any improvements are bounded by:

1. The limitations of the medium

2. For some, a desire to stay all analog

I don't subscribe to #2 because I think it's idiotic in an era when so many LPs are digitally re-mixed / re-mastered and delivered to the LP factories in digital form.


 
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watchnerd

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Now this is interesting.

A/D converter with built-in phono stage and RIAA EQ, featuring:

"A comprehensive set of equalization curves can be selected, to accommodate all phono formats ever used from 1925 to the present day, plus eq curves for reel-to-reel tapes with straight output from the playback head. The equalizer’s digital gain allows for using cartridges with output voltage as low as 100uV. A comprehensive set of input impedance values allow for interfacing both MM and MC cartridges, with an extra value specific for high output MC’s."

http://lnx.m2tech.biz/products/rockstars/joplin/

0415jop.jpg
 
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svart-hvitt

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Now this is interesting.

A/D converter with built-in phono stage and RIAA EQ, featuring:

"A comprehensive set of equalization curves can be selected, to accommodate all phono formats ever used from 1925 to the present day, plus eq curves for reel-to-reel tapes with straight output from the playback head. The equalizer’s digital gain allows for using cartridges with output voltage as low as 100uV. A comprehensive set of input impedance values allow for interfacing both MM and MC cartridges, with an extra value specific for high output MC’s."

http://lnx.m2tech.biz/products/rockstars/joplin/

0415jop.jpg

That certainly looks like an interesting box.

Keith is distributor. Maybe he has tried it?
 

Johnny2Bad

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Touching on a few things mentioned so far (although I skipped a few pages). Obviously the following contains not just a little opinion, so please take it in that light. Feel free to counter my assumptions if you've got a good argument but please let's not devolve into the "640k ought to be enough for anybody" type comments about what is, and isn't, "good enough". That metric changes, if for no other reason.

Vinyl is different partly because the motor generates it's own voltage (like a microphone or loudspeaker) while a DAC is at least partly dependent on a power supply. It would be more remarkable if they *didn't* sound different.

I completely disagree that vinyl degrades with the first and every subsequent play. If the cartridge/arm is poorly setup, that will be the case. However with properly aligned arm/motor combinations, I don't detect any significant degradation with albums that have many plays on the odometer. I find it similar to magnetic tape ... possible in theory, but not common in practice. Changing to a new stylus profile can also result in access to a different, unplayed area of the groove, if wear is an issue on a given pressing.

The built-in phono preamps on classic gear were adequate but not commonly excellent. I too had both a PSAudio, and a Marcoff, plus a Peter Moncrief phono pre back in the day* (at different times) and the difference was audible vs otherwise competent integrated amps and receivers. Not so much on preamps, where good phono performance was more common, but not unheard of either.

The layout of a PCB is fairly critical on any component, but when you are dealing with the gain and signals typical of phono cartridges, excellence in layout pays dividends. That takes engineering skill, which should be rewarded. Similarly, component selection can play a role.

*If* a decent phono preamp retails for $US 300, then we know from the usual industry cost models that the BoM should probably be about $US 75 or thereabouts. Casework and connectors can eat perhaps $25 pretty quickly, leaving maybe $50 for the circuit and PCB themselves. Looked upon in that light, it does not seem unreasonable to me, price-wise. Perhaps more significantly, should you cut the case/connector BoM down to $US 10 or even $US 5, and use adequate quality but off-brand parts elsewhere, it would not be difficult to meet a $50~75 price point. Not easy, but not difficult (which sounds contradictory, I know, but really it's not meant to be).

A decent performing basic phono pre in a reasonably practical casework can be built via following pretty much exactly the Linear Technology application note, for about $100 and a "Good Engineer" could shave that as well. (I am not a Good Engineer; I rely on the 4 or 5:1 BoM to Retail ratio to cover my ass and hopefully if I DIY something I'm happy if at least it wasn't more expensive than a boxed, warrantied unit of similar performance). Speaking from experience, the DIY game gets pretty poor pretty quick as far as saving money goes; it's addictive (always a bad sign) and you end up with stuff that cost you money but isn't making any music, but still need for the next project.

The somewhat famous Muffsy is essentially that exact Linear Technology circuit, and in my estimation is roughly the equal of those early inexpensive 1970's attempts (PS Audio, Moncreif, Marcoff, dB Systems, etc.). I owned a Luxman Lab Reference Series integrated amp during the time I had those various phono pre's in my system, no slouch sonically, and I found value in those examples over the built-in pre. The LT/Muffsy is pretty much right at the entry level DAC range.

Phono cartridges, being motor devices, are varied in their impedance requirements and output levels. Capacitance will affect the HF response and corner frequency with MM variants and apparently isn't irrelevant with every MC cartridge either. There is not one single equalization curve to follow, and even if limited to just the RIAA curve only, cutters do not necessarily follow it exactly. A phono preamp that is flexible in the interface must cost more.

Finally, let's not forget we can hear at least some information below the noise floor (especially anything non-random). In theory, again, something like -87dB/1m is apparently perceived as noise-free via human hearing, (or at least that's what Rod Elliot tells us) yet for some reason components that exceed that figure do sound better.

Is there justification for mega-buck phono preamps when (taking the assumption as gospel) a $300 preamp is perfectly acceptable? I suppose it depends on what you want. I don't expect someone to hand-assemble a phono preamp and earn $10 from the activity. If that example is competing with a machine-made alternative stuffed at the PCB fab in China, maybe $10 is all that is needed to turn a profit.

There will always be these kinds of price variances in Audio components even if we could agree that there is a ceiling on component BoM, if only to amortize the design cost over different sales volumes. Cosmetics are actually pretty expensive, and that matters to some. I read somewhere (Stereophile, perhaps) that one well regarded designer specified a custom Japanese-manufactured switch for one mid-priced High End phono pre (it used two) that in standard form at Qty:1 is something like $28 a copy. There's maybe $US 150 retail right there, and we haven't even built anything that actually performs a function yet.

Finally I do not resent someone who can afford things I cannot, I am perfectly fine with there being Ferraris and McLarens in this world, and if they want to buy megabuck components, and if someone wants to supply such products, I say more power to them both.

* I use a Acoustic Signature Tango now (German or Austrian COO, I forget which); MSRP when current was $US700 although I bought it on closeout at something like $450. A friend uses one of those $35 jobs with his recent vintage Pioneer receiver. It certainly doesn't sound "bad" ... but there is a clear difference compared to the Tango. Thankfully ;-)
 
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watchnerd

watchnerd

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I completely disagree that vinyl degrades with the first and every subsequent play. If the cartridge/arm is poorly setup, that will be the case. However with properly aligned arm/motor combinations, I don't detect any significant degradation with albums that have many plays on the odometer. I find it similar to magnetic tape ... possible in theory, but not common in practice.

So you're basically saying LPs and tape never wear out?

Really?
 

amirm

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I think the main difference here is that expensive and cheap DACs use the same silicon for the most part. So everyone is riding on the shoulders of those DAC (chip) companies. In phono stages there is no standardization.

There seems to also been a ton of low cost Chinese phono stages. Once we get them tested it will shine more light on this topic.
 
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