PS Audio Talking Smack About Amirm

[restorer-john]

FFS, so what do you interpret from the comments, and how would your quote change that interpretation from mine?

One is a quote, the other is hearsay.

 

[March Audio]

One is a quote, the other is heresay.

So there is no difference in the meaning or intent. Thank you.

 

[oldsysop]

But it's OK, at the next Audio Show where both you and PSA are exhibiting, you can tell him in person, at the bar, how much "nonsense"* he talks and what a "moron"** he is. That should be funny to watch and a lot braver than from behind an internet connection.

For me Paul is a great liar and a garbage salesman.

 

[watchnerd]

Just today there were a couple guys slagging off about Amir's Klippel measurements of pro audio monitors on gearslutz. Same old complaints by the clueless. Mainly because they don't like the idea listening pros can be upstaged by measuring gear. This isn't necessarily the prevailing attitude at gearslutz, but there is a contingent of it. Others there had started a thread pointing to ASR saying these were valuable tests and we needed more of them. Encouraging some with the gear to send it in to Amir.

Well, as someone who frequents gearslutz, there's been a "my ears know better than measurements" crowd there before ASR even existed.

People who swear that ATCs and NS-10s are the only real monitors that give insight into a mix.

The tricky bit is....if that's what their ears are trained for, it being a craft that relies on human judgment...it's hard to argue that there isn't some validity to their point.

My grandma never measured any ingredients, or really strictly timed things, but still cooked amazing dishes.

 

[March Audio]

Well, as someone who frequents gearslutz, there's been a "my ears know better than measurements" crowd there before ASR even existed.

People who swear that ATCs and NS-10s are the only real monitors that give insight into a mix.

The tricky bit is....if that's what their ears are trained for, it being a craft that relies on human judgment...it's hard to argue that there isn't some validity to their point.

My grandma never measured any ingredients, or really strictly timed things, but still cooked amazing dishes.

I think the fact that many great recordings have been mixed by a huge variety of people on a huge variety of speakers contradicts the validity of their point.

 

[virtuovice]

And the membership of ASR hasn't been doing that in this public forum for several years? Hypocritical, much?

It is warranted, particularly where certain categories of product are tested in a manner inconsistent with industry norms and interpretation varies from review to review. I have been critical of this in the past particularly with amplification products. But it is what it is.

I do agree with the sentiment that ASR members come off childish at times. Transparency and accountability behind the comments would do this place a lot of good.

But in all fairness; I own the PS Audio GCD and have had difficulties with the dealer and PS Audio resolving a humming issue in the left channel. We eventually found out it's a common issue with this model due to the placement of the toroidal transformer. PS Audio recommends to unmount the toroidal and move it around until "you can't hear the humming" and then screw it back into the chasis. After reading Amir's review for a few of their products, it reaffirmed for me that they're not particularly concerned with quality assurance and meeting high standards. I mean, if they do measure their components before they go out - how does something like that slip by? It's not a numbers/measurements thing either, you can literally hear humming in the left channel (albeit at high volume(s)). Could it be that they're not listening to their gear either? The only inconsistent testing so far (having purchased some of the gear Amir recommends) has been from PS Audio.

 

[watchnerd]

I think the fact that many great recordings have been mixed on a huge variety of speakers contradicts the validity of their point.

Or makes it equally true?

In other words, the skill of the engineer / producer is far more important the quality of the monitors. The monitors are just tools. But if their ear is calibrated to that tool, it's the right tool..for them.

Classic "Living Stereo" and "Mercury Living Presence" recordings were made on gear that, by today's standards, was garbage.

 

[watchnerd]

The measurements I've seen in stereophile magazine have been less than stellar. Pun intended.

I'm not sure it even matters, for commercial success.

Much tube gear has less than stellar measurements, but tubes have retained a fan base decades past when it should have died.

 

[restorer-john]

For me Paul is a great liar and a garbage salesman.

Quite possibly true, but a "moron" he is not.

 

[watchnerd]

You are dead wrong on this one. This isn't a forum response to a question on the PS Audio blog - this is a You Tube video, it is social media. Anything he says is fair game, and I have no doubt Paul knows this.

He clearly enjoyed throwing shade on ASR in this video, so we are certainly entitled to sling some mud back and enjoy it. Nobody's talking about each other's mothers, nobody is threatening violence - it is harmless.

It's a smart move on his part.

If there is any thing social media has taught us, it's that tribalism is powerful, us vs them is bonding, outrage culture is bonding, and all of this tends to overrule logic and truth.

He can capitalize on any anti-ASR sentiment by tagging ASR as the foe and create fan bonding in doing so.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Quite possibly true, but a "moron" he is not.

Neither is Ted Denney at Synergistic Research.

 

[Racheski]

Well, as someone who frequents gearslutz, there's been a "my ears know better than measurements" crowd there before ASR even existed.

People who swear that ATCs and NS-10s are the only real monitors that give insight into a mix.

The tricky bit is....if that's what their ears are trained for, it being a craft that relies on human judgment...it's hard to argue that there isn't some validity to their point.

My grandma never measured any ingredients, or really strictly timed things, but still cooked amazing dishes.

Did she charge thousands of dollars to eat her food and claim her taste buds could detect flavors yours could not?

 

[watchnerd]

Did she charge thousands of dollars to eat her food and claim her taste buds could detect flavors yours could not?

No to the money, yes to the taste buds and flavors.

Trained palate.

 

[CDMC]

The funny part about Paul’s slinging mud at ASR is it only serves to increase traffic for ASR. That is how I found it. I was looking for info on some Schiit and the people on SBAF were having a cow about some evil dude Amir and his bs ASR site. I had to see what the commotion was, came, looked, and found an internet forum I really liked.

 

[virtuovice]

It's a smart move on his part.

He can capitalize on any anti-ASR sentiment by tagging ASR as the foe and create fan bonding in doing so.

Is it also possible that far less of Paul's customers know about ASR? If so, mentioning ASR could mean more people paying attention to well measured gear (unfortunately not something PSA gear do well). That could result in a PSA exodus for Paul (ie. bad business).

 

[Racheski]

It's a smart move on his part.

If there is any thing social media has taught us, it's that tribalism is powerful, us vs them is bonding, outrage culture is bonding, and all of this tends to overrule logic and truth.

He can capitalize on any anti-ASR sentiment by tagging ASR as the foe and create fan bonding in doing so.

Fo sho it is a smart move. He has done an entire series of these videos during the COVID lockdown. He promotes his products, strengthens his brand and image, appeals to his customer base, and further establishes himself as an authority on audio.

The guy is a savvy businessman. No doubt about that.

 

[cistercian]

Give over John, Paul clearly stated that Amir doesn't know what he is doing with all that implies. There was nothing ambiguous about his comments or the intent.

"he is not that skilled"

"we should publish AP measurements, but done correctly"


The reality is that PSA are concerned about the fact that ASR has exposed their products to be decidedly average in technical performance (see above). They are not technically competitive which puts their VFM in a different perspective. Paul has gone on the attack to defend. Ironically by doing so stimulates discussion such as this which only damages PSA.

As a younger man I got a tour of a manufacturing facility for SW receivers. The main customer was the US government. The radios I was allowed to try on the test bench were 8500 dollars in 1985. After certain changes were required for computer remote they became obsolete and I picked up a couple for about 500 dollars each. I also got a manual. Bear with here.

In the specification section the test equipment used was specified as were all voltages as well as the formulas used for calculations.
The service adjustment section was equally rigorous and specified room temperature as well as how many hours the equipment had to be on
to make certain critical adjustments. In short the specs were ironclad and easily measured if you had the HP analyzer and signal source specified!
Absolutely epic stuff. That factory tour was fantastic and discussing design decisions and implementation was the highlight.
The head of engineering gave me the tour. What a great serious no bullshit shop he ran.

Contrast that shop with...

 

[Zensō]

Pure FUD. It makes him look unprofessional.

 

[Blumlein 88]

As a younger man I got a tour of a manufacturing facility for SW receivers. The main customer was the US government. The radios I was allowed to try on the test bench were 8500 dollars in 1985. After certain changes were required for computer remote they became obsolete and I picked up a couple for about 500 dollars each. I also got a manual. Bear with here.

In the specification section the test equipment used was specified as were all voltages as well as the formulas used for calculations.
The service adjustment section was equally rigorous and specified room temperature as well as how many hours the equipment had to be on
to make certain critical adjustments. In short the specs were ironclad and easily measured if you had the HP analyzer and signal source specified!
Absolutely epic stuff. That factory tour was fantastic and discussing design decisions and implementation was the highlight.
The head of engineering gave me the tour. What a great serious no bullshit shop he ran.

Contrast that shop with...

One difference is the customer. Their customers likely understood all those specs, conditions etc. So the more detailed and honest they were the better.

In audio, many don't know the specs or think they do and don't notice the ways games are played with them. PS audio like many others didn't build their rep on specs, but on "how does it sound". Along with hints at what good practice was (some of it wrong by the way).

 

[March Audio]

Or makes it equally true?

In other words, the skill of the engineer / producer is far more important the quality of the monitors. The monitors are just tools. But if their ear is calibrated to that tool, it's the right tool..for them.

Classic "Living Stereo" and "Mercury Living Presence" recordings were made on gear that, by today's standards, was garbage.

Naahhh that's just the circle of cunfusion