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Seeking recommendations: Best active speakers for $10k/pair? (Would also be offered for measurement.)

LTig

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Regarding ASR measurement, unfortunately that window has passed as I have sold the KH310s to another forum member here (not local though unfortunately, and they’re fairly expensive to ship). I was never contacted about measuring them from Amir aside from a PM from him many months ago (I forget when) that he’ll contact me when he’s ready to test some of my speakers.
That's a real pity since a second chance to measure a KH310 may take a long time to come up. OTOH Neumann publishes all relevant data and we know from the KH80 that they should be correct. However I really would like to read about @amirm's subjective listening test..
 

amirm

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That's a real pity since a second chance to measure a KH310 may take a long time to come up. OTOH Neumann publishes all relevant data and we know from the KH80 that they should be correct. However I really would like to read about @amirm's subjective listening test..
Guy at Neumann contacted me and is kindly arranging to send me a KH310 for testing! :)
 

andrewch

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Guy at Neumann contacted me and is kindly arranging to send me a KH310 for testing! :)

Great to hear that! He told me he is in contact with you, so I expect the Neumann kh310 to be sent for a test soon. Have been waiting on this for quite some time, as all my research (and budget) has lead me to the kh310.
 

daftcombo

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I have contacted a Neumann employee in the US and he told me he is in contact with Amir, so I expect the Neumann kh310 to be sent for a test soon. Have been waiting on this for quite some time, as all my research (and budget) has lead me to the kh310.
Great news. What about KH420?
As WHO said: Test, test, test!
 

andrewch

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When I found this topic I was not happy to spend near $10K for a full range home system, but looking at the pricing and active speakers offer led me to another solution in 'two instalments' and an MVP (minimum viable product) style system building, meaning:

First stage:
2 x kh310
SHD Studio (DAC I already have)

Second stage:
2 x kh750

As it turns out, this whole full range 4-way system costs around $9K in Europe.

For short I ventured into passive territory but quickly gave up on that, as powered option is more preferred.

So I just want to check with you if there are other options to consider. I've read the whole thread and I'm familiar with previous recommendations.

Edit: Neumann kh310 on top of kh750 dsp in a system made by a forum friend.

oSQiZw0.jpg
 
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Hephaestus

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When I found this topic I was not happy to spend near $10K for a full range home system, but looking at the pricing and active speakers offer led me to another solution in 'two instalments' and an MVP (minimum viable product) style system building, meaning:

First stage:
2 x kh310
SHD Studio (DAC I already have)

Second stage:
2 x kh750

As it turns out, this whole full range 4-way system costs around $9K in Europe.

For short I ventured into passive territory but quickly gave up on that, as powered option is more preferred.

So I just want to check with you if there are other options to consider. I've read the whole thread and I'm familiar with previous recommendations.

Edit: Neumann kh310 on top of kh750 dsp in a system made by a forum friend.

oSQiZw0.jpg

Knowing the engineering behind this gear - you will be happy for a long time. Small correction though MiniDSP SHD Studio doesnt have a DAC. It is purely digital piece of a gear.
 

andrewch

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Knowing the engineering behind this gear - you will be happy for a long time. Small correction though MiniDSP SHD Studio doesnt have a DAC. It is purely digital piece of a gear.

Thanks. Yes, I'm aware and will be using the Sabaj D5 DAC which also powers my Focal Elex headphones via balanced.
 

Ilkless

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When I found this topic I was not happy to spend near $10K for a full range home system, but looking at the pricing and active speakers offer led me to another solution in 'two instalments' and an MVP (minimum viable product) style system building, meaning:

First stage:
2 x kh310
SHD Studio (DAC I already have)

Second stage:
2 x kh750

As it turns out, this whole full range 4-way system costs around $9K in Europe.

For short I ventured into passive territory but quickly gave up on that, as powered option is more preferred.

So I just want to check with you if there are other options to consider. I've read the whole thread and I'm familiar with previous recommendations.

Edit: Neumann kh310 on top of kh750 dsp in a system made by a forum friend.

oSQiZw0.jpg

It actually resembles one of those old big 3/4-way vintage monitors, except much more modern and advanced of course.
 
OP
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echopraxia

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@andrewch Honestly my only complaint with Neumanns is that they don’t seem to have any sort of auto-standby. You can leave them on all the time (there isn’t any hiss unless you put your ear centimeters from the tweeter), but the heat sinks will remain very mildly warm to the touch and 24W of idle power will be consumed by each KH310. (But, this is fairly straightforward to solve yourself if you want via a trigger-controlled power strip.)

Another thing to consider vs Genelec is that the KH310 midrange and woofer is not grilled, whereas the 2-way Genelecs of similar size are fully grilled. Granted, this is maybe not a fair comparison since the flagship Genelec’s like my 8351B don’t have a grilled midrange either (though their woofers are protected by their unique desi

And lastly, the KH310 don’t seem to measure as well as other Neumanns or Genelec’s in one way, particularly the directivity index in some band of the midrange. But, I don’t hear any issues from it personally in the rooms I’ve listened.

Oh BTW also, I’ve measured a single Neumann KH310 pushing 105-110 decibels at 40-50hz without clipping indicator engaging. Their bass power is very impressive. I wouldn’t be surprised if these can outdo some subwoofers out there :)

So to your question, I do not think you would be unhappy with Neumann or Genelec, whichever you choose. If I were going for a $10k Neumann setup though I’d personally gravitate towards the KH420 due to their exceptional off-axis measurements and full range SPL capabilities (covering almost everything except borderline subsonic frequencies). But I realize you want a more tiered approach. In that sense, you may want to weigh the options of Genelec’s 8” 2-way and 3-way monitors against the Neumanns. They’re all fantastic for the price, and just have slightly different pros and cons.
 
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OP
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echopraxia

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When I found this topic I was not happy to spend near $10K for a full range home system, but looking at the pricing and active speakers offer led me to another solution in 'two instalments' and an MVP (minimum viable product) style system building, meaning:

First stage:
2 x kh310
SHD Studio (DAC I already have)

Second stage:
2 x kh750

As it turns out, this whole full range 4-way system costs around $9K in Europe.

For short I ventured into passive territory but quickly gave up on that, as powered option is more preferred.

So I just want to check with you if there are other options to consider. I've read the whole thread and I'm familiar with previous recommendations.

Edit: Neumann kh310 on top of kh750 dsp in a system made by a forum friend.

oSQiZw0.jpg
Oh also lastly, I recall @stevenswall had a really positive review of the highly capable last-gen 3-way Genelec monitors like the 8260, which have been technically superseded by “the ones” line but still come very very close in performance and exceed them in some ways like SPL.

Granted, their MSRP is twice that of the KH310s, at least here in the US without any major discounts. But, if you could find a sufficient discount in your country to compare to the KH310s (not sure if that’s possible, but I remember good potential discounts on these were brought up on this thread a while back), they’d be a great option to consider.
 

LTig

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Another thing to consider vs Genelec is that the KH310 midrange and woofer is not grilled, whereas the 2-way Genelecs of similar size are fully grilled.
The grille for the KH310 (GKH 310) is sold separately, but for quite a price. I got them for my old O300D (probably the same). They cover the whole front and are so stable you could kick them and still not bend them, so this may warrant its price.
 

LTig

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When I found this topic I was not happy to spend near $10K for a full range home system, but looking at the pricing and active speakers offer led me to another solution in 'two instalments' and an MVP (minimum viable product) style system building, meaning:

First stage:
2 x kh310
SHD Studio (DAC I already have)

Second stage:
2 x kh750

As it turns out, this whole full range 4-way system costs around $9K in Europe.
For short I ventured into passive territory but quickly gave up on that, as powered option is more preferred.

So I just want to check with you if there are other options to consider. I've read the whole thread and I'm familiar with previous recommendations.
That's a good approach, but you could also try with one sub first (as I have, running a pair of K&H O300D and one Genelec 78060B).
Edit: Neumann kh310 on top of kh750 dsp in a system made by a forum friend.

oSQiZw0.jpg
This combo is probably hard to beat, but I would not indent to stock them like on this pic. It makes more sense to position the subs where they work best. I also think that such a well positioned combo should be able to beat the KH420 without sub due to better bass.
 

q3cpma

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That's a good approach, but you could also try with one sub first (as I have, running a pair of K&H O300D and one Genelec 78060B).

This combo is probably hard to beat, but I would not indent to stock them like on this pic. It makes more sense to position the subs where they work best. I also think that such a well positioned combo should be able to beat the KH420 without sub due to better bass.
Hard to say, as both have a 10" woofer with a similar amount of power but the KH420 is ported.
 

LTig

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This combo is probably hard to beat, but I would not indent to stock them like on this pic. It makes more sense to position the subs where they work best. I also think that such a well positioned combo should be able to beat the KH420 without sub due to better bass.
Hard to say, as both have a 10" woofer with a similar amount of power but the KH420 is ported.
Don't get me wrong - the only reason why the combo would be better in bass is because you can place subs and sats each at their best working position in the room - usually for the subs this is not beneath (or close to) the sats. With the KH420 you don't have this choice which I think in many rooms will lead to non optimal bass.
 
OP
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echopraxia

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Those are the most expensive speaker stands I have ever seen. (I realize you are waiting for the real stands to arrive).
How about these for stands:

0C5B7501-E7A7-44C0-B8CB-C84D2FADF898.jpeg


On a related note, a Revel Salon2 vs Genelec 8351B blind test (both carefully calibrated to the room) may be coming soon :)

If anyone has thoughts/preferences on how you’d prefer such a test be performed, let me know.

I am thinking the test will be performed as shown (Genelec on top and pointed down) despite the height of the Genelecs unless it sounds or measures bad, because this very conveniently eliminates bias from horizontal placement differences which very audibly influence the sound/soundstage.

I am also thinking this time I will use subs (stereo Rythmik F18), integrated and calibrated to match in room responses as much as reasonable with my miniDSP SHD.
 
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richard12511

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How about these for stands:

View attachment 79229

On a related note, a Revel Salon2 vs Genelec 8351B blind test (both carefully calibrated to the room) may be coming soon :)

If anyone has thoughts/preferences on how you’d prefer such a test be performed, let me know.

I am thinking the test will be performed as shown (Genelec on top and pointed down) despite the height of the Genelecs unless it sounds or measures bad, because this very conveniently eliminates bias from horizontal placement differences which very audibly influence the sound/soundstage.

I am also thinking this time I will use subs (stereo Rythmik F18), integrated and calibrated to match in room responses as much as reasonable with my miniDSP SHD.

Invite me to join! :p

Seriously though, it could be one of the most valuable public facing blinds ever done. I don't like the vertical placement idea now that you've said that's how you're gonna do it. If you do do it that way, don't tell the people ahead of time what the orientation will be.

I like the idea of using integrated/EQed subs to take the bass out of the equation.

My biggest wish for the test would be for you to involve as many people as you reasonably can. The more people you can get, the more valuable the data you can provide will be.

One other wish(though this somewhat goes against the Harman science) is to do both a mono and a stereo test. I fear that with 2 very neutral speakers like this, the mono test may end up being just a battle of dispersion width). No real science to back that fear up, but it did show up a few years ago with a blind I hosted between the Revel M105 and JTR 210.

If the same speaker wins both tests it will add further credence to the Harman mono vs stereo science.



Finally, how do you plan to switch and level match? In the past blinds that I've hosted, we struggled to have reasonable switching times with passive vs. active comparisons. Passive vs Passive or Active vs Active was no problem, but we had to resort to very slow manual switching/powering/changing input/setting volume. It made it very difficult to compare.

A couple months ago I hosted a blind between the Revel M105 and JBL 308p, but it was similarly painful. I asked ahead of time if any one knew of any device that could switch between passive and active. I did get some responses, but the cheapest device was like $1,000. At 5x the price of what I paid for the JBL, it just wasn't worth it, but for a $30,000 blind like this, it might be.

*Edit - Also, take in room measurements of both in the same spot.
 
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OP
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echopraxia

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Invite me to join! :p

Seriously though, it could be one of the most valuable public facing blinds ever done. I don't like the vertical placement idea now that you've said that's how you're gonna do it. If you do do it that way, don't tell the people ahead of time what the orientation will be.

I like the idea of using integrated/EQed subs to take the bass out of the equation.

My biggest wish for the test would be for you to involve as many people as you reasonably can. The more people you can get, the more valuable the data you can provide will be.

One other wish(though this somewhat goes against the Harman science) is to do both a mono and a stereo test. I fear that with 2 very neutral speakers like this, the mono test may end up being just a battle of dispersion width). No real science to back that fear up, but it did show up a few years ago with a blind I hosted between the Revel M105 and JTR 210.

If the same speaker wins both tests it will add further credence to the Harman mono vs stereo science.



Finally, how do you plan to switch and level match? In the past blinds that I've hosted, we struggled to have reasonable switching times with passive vs. active comparisons. Passive vs Passive or Active vs Active was no problem, but we had to resort to very slow manual switching/powering/changing input/setting volume. It made it very difficult to compare.

A couple months ago I hosted a blind between the Revel M105 and JBL 308p, but it was similarly painful. I asked ahead of time if any one knew of any device that could switch between passive and active. I did get some responses, but the cheapest device was like $1,000. At 5x the price of what I paid for the JBL, it just wasn't worth it, but for a $30,000 blind like this, it might be.

*Edit - Also, take in room measurements of both in the same spot.
Can you explain more about what you don’t like about stacking them vertically? I find that we are very sensitive to horizontal differences, and when switching horizontal differences are hard not to notice.

Level matching will be easy in that I am now working on EQing them with the goal of having almost identical in-room frequency response. The problem with level matching otherwise is that matched level on one song is not matched on another. So, I think ensuring EQ is the same will be very important.

The nice thing about the miniDSP SHD is you can save up to four profiles, each with different channel mappings, levels, and DSP filters. This will make it super easy to switch.
 
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