• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

The frailty of Sighted Listening Tests

Rusty Shackleford

Active Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
255
Likes
550
Tbh iv no clue what your point is , beyond grabbing every straw to try and win some battle the origin of which no one can even remember.

Every time you add a bit more nonsense to back your extravagant claim about Amir proclaiming to be the greatest listener in the universe and impervious to bias and all other potential error.

Your expending a huge amount of time and effort to this mission. God knows why.

It's quite dull .

I’m literally copying and pasting his own words. And I’ve explained how it’s germane to this issue. If he’s asserting that no trained listeners are his peers, then there’s no way to possibly bring research to bear on this issue.
 

Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
10,260
Likes
16,298
Location
uk, taunton
I’m literally copying and pasting his own words. And I’ve explained how it’s germane to this issue. If he’s asserting that no trained listeners are his peers, then there’s no way to possibly bring research to bear on this issue.
Yes and putting a slant on it to suit this obsession you seem to have developed.

It's incredibly dull and purely about competitive debating.

There's a thread open for a constructive look at how to present listening impressions with the speaker reviews but that's not what this is about for you . It's something less useful and rather self serving.
 

Rusty Shackleford

Active Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
255
Likes
550
Yes and putting a slant on it to suit this obsession you seem to have developed.

It's incredibly dull and purely about competitive debating.

There's a thread open for a constructive look at how to present listening impressions with the speaker reviews but that's not what this is about for you . It's something less useful and rather self serving.

There’s no way to have a constructive look if the person presenting the impressions says the research doesn’t apply to him.

Moreover, I think the person rehashing six-year-old debates with dead guys and asserting that they’re smarter and more talented than everyone else, including Harman-trained listeners, is the one being “self serving.”
 

Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
10,260
Likes
16,298
Location
uk, taunton
There’s no way to have a constructive look if the person presenting the impressions says the research doesn’t apply to him.

Moreover, I think the person rehashing six-year-old debates with dead guys and asserting that they’re smarter and more talented than everyone else, including Harman-trained listeners, is the one being “self serving.”
Wonderful, more nonsense but let's leave it there.
 

TimVG

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 16, 2019
Messages
1,181
Likes
2,573
There’s no way to have a constructive look if the person presenting the impressions says the research doesn’t apply to him.

Moreover, I think the person rehashing six-year-old debates with dead guys and asserting that they’re smarter and more talented than everyone else, including Harman-trained listeners, is the one being “self serving.”

What is your endgame here if I may ask? What could you possibly have against someone who's invested well over $100k of his own money and countless hours providing us with measurements otherwise unavailable, for free. What does it matter that Amir gives us a quick & dirty sighted impression? Is this not a good thing? If you care so much, it's easy to go out and buy one the speakers in question that didn't perform well in the listening test, and organize your own blind test - we'd all be happy to learn of the results.
 

Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
10,260
Likes
16,298
Location
uk, taunton
Where has he identified a trained listener that is his peer?
I'm not playing your games , if you want to carry on I will happily end your clear unhappiness and issue you with a forum ban .

you can consider it saving you from yourself, I'm certain you have better things to be doing
 

Rusty Shackleford

Active Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
255
Likes
550
I'm not playing your games , if you want to carry on I will happily end your clear unhappiness and issue you with a forum ban .

you can consider it saving you from yourself, I'm certain you have better things to be doing

I fail to see how anything I have posted even remotely qualifies as requiring a ban. If you don’t want me to reply to you, then don’t reply to me. Same goes for Amir.
 

Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
10,260
Likes
16,298
Location
uk, taunton
I fail to see how anything I have posted even remotely qualifies as requiring a ban. If you don’t want me to reply to you, then don’t reply to me. Same goes for Amir.
It's hard not to reply when you write such nonsense, play such deceptive and manipulative games.

You have had fair warning , publicly and privately. I suggest you heed that.
 

Rusty Shackleford

Active Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
255
Likes
550
It's hard not to reply when you write such nonsense, play such deceptive and manipulative games.

Nothing I have said is deceptive or manipulative. If you feel I’ve gotten something wrong, please quote it and provide evidence that contradicts it, and I’ll be happy to correct it. I take pride in making sure I quote, rather than paraphrase, things for this exact reason.

Beyond that, I don’t have a beef with you and am not trying to engage in any type of argument with you.
 

Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
10,260
Likes
16,298
Location
uk, taunton
Nothing I have said is deceptive or manipulative. If you feel I’ve gotten something wrong, please quote it and provide evidence that contradicts it, and I’ll be happy to correct it. I take pride in making sure I quote, rather than paraphrase, things for this exact reason.

Beyond that, I don’t have a beef with you and am not trying to engage in any type of argument with you.
You twist things rusty, you clearly have a impression of Amirm and apply a strong bias to his words . You arrive at meaning I find quite unreasonable.

God knows Amirm can be defensive and can lampoon himself in these forum exchanges, he too can fall victim to his own debating competitiveness but your being very unfair in the way you are trying to present his words .

This has gone way beyond what's reasonable, respectful and constructive. The only way I can see to stop this here and keep things getting further out of hand is to either close the thread or issue you with a thread ban .

You have made your point , many many times . It's all here for all to read . In light of this I'm issuing you with a thread ban so you can hopefully move on to more rewarding things / discussions.
 

Racheski

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Messages
1,116
Likes
1,699
Location
Chicago
It seems that toi don't want to recognize that biais affects every humans being in all situations. Audio world is no different than other field. Again it comes to a point where there's "specials" human.

Foobar ABX is a blind test. But again no one refute your abilities.
He asked you because it's very easy to just say "cognitive bias affects every human beings in all situations". This is obvious and just creates FUD regarding Amir's reviews. It's as lazy as me posting these articles and saying see, training removes cognitive bias!

Debiasing Training Improves Decision Making in the Field
"The results provide promising evidence that debiasing-training effects transfer to field settings and can improve decision making in professional and private life."

Training to reduce cognitive biases
"These results stand in contrast to prior work, which had failed to find evidence that debiasing training could transfer to other settings and have implications for improving decision-making."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias_mitigation
 
OP
P

patate91

Active Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
Messages
253
Likes
137
He asked you because it's very easy to just say "cognitive bias affects every human beings in all situations". This is obvious and just creates FUD regarding Amir's reviews. It's as lazy as me posting these articles and saying see, training removes cognitive bias!

Debiasing Training Improves Decision Making in the Field
"The results provide promising evidence that debiasing-training effects transfer to field settings and can improve decision making in professional and private life."

Training to reduce cognitive biases
"These results stand in contrast to prior work, which had failed to find evidence that debiasing training could transfer to other settings and have implications for improving decision-making."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias_mitigation

Great smoked ribs and chicken wings are almost ready. I'll take a look at it!
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,368
Likes
234,381
Location
Seattle Area
It seems that toi don't want to recognize that biais affects every humans being in all situations. Audio world is no different than other field. Again it comes to a point where there's "specials" human.
You tell them.... I am pretty sure we need a blind test to tell apart ice cream from sour lemon.....
 

Coach_Kaarlo

Active Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
196
Likes
222
Location
Sydney
My responses in bold.

Thanks for answering!
The point of Question 1 is simply whether experienced listener / critical listener is one and the same. To me it is not, to you it is?]

Yes and no. Define the criteria for same perhaps.

{Yes, let's assume bias is always present. And blind testing trumps sighted testing in accuracy, no one doubts that too.
Under the 2 assumptions above, can a 'critical listener' still dispense his work duties *(with sighted testing, just so it's clear. Blind testing is used when required)?]

Yes, which was my poorly explained point - seeing the speaker does not diminish my ability to tell it is out of phase v in-phase. However, trying to describe esoteric or imaginative characteristics which elude measurement and cannot be discovered / replicated by other similar skilled listeners is the line. And this line would be independent of the listeners credentials.

[Corporations think they can, hence they're still being trained, paid and relied upon.
But in your opinion, they (or their professional opinions when doing sighted testing) cannot be depended upon because everyone has bias? So they HAVE to do blind testing for their professional opinions to have any weight at all?
*edited to hopefully make the question clearer]

Yes, and no. Depends what their claims are, what they think they are hearing. Can they support those claims with facts which can be discovered or replicated by others? Or is it all in their head (cognitive and other biases).

[No arguments on that. It is up to the individual to read the data and listen to opinions and eventually make his own decisions.
So Amir gives a professional opinion, it's up to the individual to listen, or not. No arguments too I hope?]

Depends on Amrim’s claims - see above.




If you're referring to the sentences I omitted for brevity, sure.
 
Top Bottom