VTV Amplifier - Terrible Quality Build and Customer Service

[PierreV]

[1] This evening, I played music fairly loudly for several hours with my March Audio P451’s powering my Salon2’s full range (no help from the subwoofers), and was pleasantly surprised to notice the March Audio amps were virtually cold to the touch throughout.

In contrast, when I first received the VTVs, I plugged them in and turned them on with no signal in or out, just to test that they don’t explode. After a few hours, I noticed they were uncomfortably hot to the touch.

This makes a lot of sense now, given the findings above.

That's not the reason actually: hypex modules tend to be significantly warmer at idle than when playing loud

 

[jww1]

I thought some of you considering VTV amplifier would want to know this before you buy. I ended up ordering amps from both VTV and March Audio, since I’ll have two pairs of speakers I can power with upgraded amps.

In short, the March Audio amps are built to perfection, as far as I can tell. They were clearly assembled with care, they seem perfect both cosmetically and functionally. Connectors are very solid and secure, etc. And, Alan March via email was extremely helpful and patient throughout all my questions.

VTV was the opposite. Assembly quality is among the worst I have seen in my life for a product of this price, and VTV’s communications demonstrate an utter lack of care whatsoever for the quality of their products. There is zero attention to detail here.

Here is a photo of the VTV amplifier undersides as they arrived:

View attachment 77363

Notice lots of scuffs, scrapes, sloppy custom drill holes all over the place, loose screws, missing screws. Here is a close up of a loose screw:

View attachment 77364

Here is an entirely missing screw:

View attachment 77365

So opening it up, here’s what we see:

View attachment 77366

View attachment 77367
View attachment 77368

 

[jww1]

I read that the company offers a 30 day trial period. Did you consider just returning it? Seems to me you are now stuck with something you will never feel good about and that you will be reluctant to sell to someone else.

 

[March Audio]

That's not the reason actually: hypex modules tend to be significantly warmer at idle than when playing loud

Sorry Pierre but I have to correct you there. Whilst the modules effectively become more efficient at higher power levels (more about the idle losses rather than any increase in actual efficiency) the heat dissipation still increases. Please refer to the left hand graph below for the nc500 (don't have one available for the nc1200 but it will obviously be higher still)

So adequate heatsinking is still required and heatsink compound will assist in transferring heat into the case and minimising the module temp.

 

[echopraxia]

I read that the company offers a 30 day trial period. Did you consider just returning it? Seems to me you are now stuck with something you will never feel good about and that you will be reluctant to sell to someone else.

I cover this in my initial post and some others in this thread. In short, I considered returning it at first. However, I wanted to be as fair and generous to VTV here as I possibly could be, so I ended up deciding I would keep the Hypex modules and either fix all the major build quality issues myself, or rebuild the amp completely myself.

However, now thanks to March Audio’s offer, I have the opportunity to have these professionally rebuilt into P701‘s, which I appreciate. I’m happily paying for this service, because IMO March Audio’s products are well worth the price, and are still massively more affordable than e.g. NAD Hypex amps.

So, I hope it is obvious that I do not blame VTV for whether or not I decided to return these. (That’s a personal decision of how I am proceeding, and is beyond the scope of this thread.) But consumers absolutely deserve to know the truth here about VTV’s (lack of) build quality,

To be clear, I hope nobody is mistaking my review here for me wanting to get something out of VTV at this point: I consider this all to be case closed between VTV and me — I am not looking to gain anything from VTV at this point, or anyone else. This thread is solely my retrospective review of VTV, meant entirely for the benefit of ASR readers, with no ulterior motives beyond that. Consumers deserve transparency, and that’s what I aim to provide.

 

[Killingbeans]

The combo of Hypex/Purifi and Ghent Audio has made life way too easy for opportunists...

 

[VTV Amplifier]

I appreciate all the comments and @echopraxia , I am sorry you had a bad experience. It was certainly not my intention to make you "feel you were being unreasonable' and I apologize if you had that impression. To be clear:
--The AC outlet is held in place by metal tabs. I thoroughly check that it is secure when assembling. Yes it can be pulled out with force as when disassembling and the tabs are bent down but not in normal use with a plug.
--The unit is wired to AES48-19 (pin #1 to chassis ground) I do not send out amps with frayed ground connections.
--The chassis is safety grounded
--Hypex does not necessarily recommend thermal grease, see article on their site about thermal management
--I have thoroughly tested this amplifier combination for heat dissipation and found it to have excellent heat dissipation. It also sounds great!

My goal is satisfied customers. I am sorry this purchase did not work out to your satisfaction and hope you will be able to have an amp built for your needs.

'

 

[jww1]

When all is said and done how much will it have cost you to have an amplifier that is acceptable to you? Cost of the original VTV amp and the cost for March to build you a new amp using the components from the original VTV?

 

[617]

Why is it that Mundorf and WBT make solder but they don't make faston connectors?

 

[RayDunzl]

Why is it that Mundorf and WBT make solder but they don't make faston connectors?

Because FASTON is a brand name?

https://trademarks.justia.com/721/44/faston-72144554.html

https://www.te.com/usa-en/plp/faston/ZnaA.html

 

[Deleted member 2944]

When all is said and done how much will it have cost you to have an amplifier that is acceptable to you? Cost of the original VTV amp and the cost for March to build you a new amp using the components from the original VTV?

Yeah, I don't understand the cost calculation here either. And the modules (might be) sent all the way to Western Australia to be installed in a chassis and then sent all the way back to the U.S.?? Huh...

This is obviously more about twisting the knife in VTV at this point.

Dave.

 

[CDMC]

I appreciate all the comments and @echopraxia , I am sorry you had a bad experience. It was certainly not my intention to make you "feel you were being unreasonable' and I apologize if you had that impression. To be clear:
--The AC outlet is held in place by metal tabs. I thoroughly check that it is secure when assembling. Yes it can be pulled out with force as when disassembling and the tabs are bent down but not in normal use with a plug.
--The unit is wired to AES48-19 (pin #1 to chassis ground) I do not send out amps with frayed ground connections.
--The chassis is safety grounded
--Hypex does not necessarily recommend thermal grease, see article on their site about thermal management
--I have thoroughly tested this amplifier combination for heat dissipation and found it to have excellent heat dissipation. It also sounds great!

My goal is satisfied customers. I am sorry this purchase did not work out to your satisfaction and hope you will be able to have an amp built for your needs.

'

Please take my comments how they are intended, as constructive criticism, as I believe the issues are nothing that can't be corrected pretty easily.

1) Pin 1- It is clear you are trying to correct the issue as you have changed from what you were doing before. Unfortunately, it still isn't correct and the quality of the fix is pretty poor. Follow this link to a prior post showing how it should be wired and what can be done to correct it: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...build-and-customer-service.15220/#post-480240

2) The quality of the soldering is pretty poor (guess what, so is mine). Similarly, the running of the cables and the quality of the assembly is lacking. Some people are good at soldering and mechanical work, some aren't. Have you considered trying to locate a local tech that would do the assembly for you on a per piece basis? It looks like the average electronic tech salary in Ohio is about $20 per hour. An experienced tech should be able to assemble each amplifier in about 30 minutes. I would be willing to bet there is a shop out there that would gladly do the assembly for $25-40 per unit. You could easily pass this cost on to the customer in exchange for a quality assembly and marketing it as built by a certified tech.

3) Ghent is now offering cases pre-drilled for the NC1200s: https://www.ghentaudio.com/kit/ncore-mx.html . It may help if you confirm that you are using these going forward, as it would put to bet the issue of the drilling the cases yourself.

4) I am not sure this is even possible under the agreements with Hypex and Purifi, but offering a kit or raw modules would be attractive so some (myself included). There is a whole market for those who enjoy doing the assembly themselves.

 

[PierreV]

Sorry Pierre but I have to correct you there. Whilst the modules effectively become more efficient at higher power levels (more about the idle losses rather than any increase in actual efficiency) the heat dissipation still increases.

Thanks for the explanation. Sounds logical indeed. I could have sworn my NC400 are warmer when idling, but this could also be due to the fact that, when I notice them idling, it is because I have forgotten to turn them off for a while.

 

[echopraxia]

I do not send out amps with frayed ground connections.

You did in this case, as depicted in several of my photos above. For reference:

The AC outlet is held in place by metal tabs. I thoroughly check that it is secure when assembling. Yes it can be pulled out with force as when disassembling and the tabs are bent down but not in normal use with a plug.

It did not take much force to pop out, and perhaps I did not make it clear enough how extreme the power connector socket would wobble from even gentle force. To demonstrate, I had recorded a video of this earlier (prior to disassembly):

(If the GIF video doesn't play inline on your device, try this link).

Before you claim this is due to excessive force, please note that the looseness demonstrated above is produced from nothing more than gently wiggling the soft portion of the power cable.

My goal is satisfied customers. I am sorry this purchase did not work out to your satisfaction and hope you will be able to have an amp built for your needs.

This thread exists because this is no longer about me. It’s about a consistent trend of reports about VTV build quality.

IMO, it would do VTV well to take responsibility, admit where the build quality here is unacceptable (should never have been delivered in that state), and reassure prospective future customers how you’re going to ensure such issues don’t happen again.

 

[restorer-john]

This is devolving into a very public display of knife twisting by otherwise grown men who should know better.

After all, they are just off-the-shelf, commodity amplifier modules being screwed into cases, all around the world by every man and his dog, with or without a bit of customization. The variations in fit and finish will be enormous and range from the unsafe to perfectly serviceable.

People don't want to pay for an NAD (or someone else that uses Hypex/Purifi in their gear) with production line quality, backup, service and parts, but want to pretend they are getting SOTA performance in a cheap box for way less money.

Sorry, I have zero sympathy. It's nothing more than a kit build done poorly. You (the OP) had the opportunity to remedy the situation with a refund and move on, but wanted to make a scene about it all.

 

[echopraxia]

People don't want to pay for an NAD (or someone else that uses Hypex/Purifi in their gear) with production line quality, backup, service and parts, but want to pretend they are getting SOTA performance in a cheap box for way less money.

Sorry, I have zero sympathy. It's nothing more than a kit build done poorly. You (the OP) had the opportunity to remedy the situation with a refund and move on, but wanted to make a scene about it all.

Perhaps I didn't make clear enough earlier: I'm not asking for anyone's sympathy. I'm fine, since I can afford to have the amps safely rebuilt.

But reviews are not about the reviewer, they are about the product and the consumer researching products. Consumers deserve transparency. Simple as that. Do you have a problem with the concept of honest reviews in general?

In case this was not clear: The reason this discussion about loose power connectors is ongoing at all, is because VTV insists that there is no problem. Look at the GIF above and tell me that this is acceptable and safe to sell as a consumer product, and I will concede your point (though I am not entirely sure I understand what point you're trying to make).

After all, they are just off-the-shelf, commodity amplifier modules being screwed into cases, all around the world by every man and his dog, with or without a bit of customization. The variations in fit and finish will be enormous and range from the unsafe to perfectly serviceable.

People don't want to pay for an NAD (or someone else that uses Hypex/Purifi in their gear) with production line quality, backup, service and parts, but want to pretend they are getting SOTA performance in a cheap box for way less money.

Sorry, but this is simply not true: March Audio proves by example that it can be done for a price far better than e.g. NAD and with no lack of build quality.

If you have a problem in general with the idea of seeking high price/performance ratio products, then I'm not quite sure what you seek to get out of ASR.

 

[Doodski]

This is devolving into a very public display of knife twisting by otherwise grown men who should know better.

After all, they are just off-the-shelf, commodity amplifier modules being screwed into cases, all around the world by every man and his dog, with or without a bit of customization. The variations in fit and finish will be enormous and range from the unsafe to perfectly serviceable.

People don't want to pay for an NAD (or someone else that uses Hypex/Purifi in their gear) with production line quality, backup, service and parts, but want to pretend they are getting SOTA performance in a cheap box for way less money.

Sorry, I have zero sympathy. It's nothing more than a kit build done poorly. You (the OP) had the opportunity to remedy the situation with a refund and move on, but wanted to make a scene about it all.

The slap dash assembly of this VTV amplifier is not acceptable workmanship. The resulting casual attitude about it by the supplier is more of the same. Frankly I think there is some psychological issue here on the part of the supplier. If me I would have shipped it back pronto and requested a refund and then warned peeps about it. I think it's unfair to load up responsibility on the buyer who in good faith purchased it online. The good faith ended when this unit was shipped in this condition. If this where a employee I would fire the employee.

 

[restorer-john]

Look at the GIF above and tell me that this is acceptable and safe to sell as a consumer product, and I will concede your point (though I am not entirely sure I understand your point).

It's not a consumer product. It's basically a kit build, done by a likely back-yard operation. There's no electrical compliance markings, it's in an off-the-shelf case and contains little actual original content. It's a join-the-dots amplifier.

This is how it's done:

At least March makes a few PCBs and contructs his amplifiers carefully in a very nice case. Out of all the basic, no-frills Hypex/Purifi implementations, his must be one of the better ones. But he is not competing against NAD, he's found a niche and good luck to him.

 

[restorer-john]

If me I would have shipped it back pronto and requested a refund and then warned peeps about it. I think it's unfair to load up responsibility on the buyer who in good faith purchased it online.

You and I wouldn't have bought it in the first place.

The buyer is 100% responsible for his own buying decisions. Nobody else is. Unless there was deception on the part of the seller (which there doesn't appear to be), he's entitled to remedy. That was offered. Take it and move on.

Again, why people think they have some duty to make a noise about everything they think is injustice these days is beyond me. It's a sad idictment of the lack of accepting personal responsibility and learning from it. The need to share their feelings somehow helps others. Hint: it doesn't, it only makes people look like whingers.

 

[Doodski]

You and I wouldn't have bought it in the first place.

That's true. No CSA and no UL certification makes me nervous. It will probably nullify the insurance if the house burns down and a investigation ensues.