Hearing unmeasurable differences in DACs

[mnemonix]

I've taken video link this from a post by minimalist in another unrelated thread because my interest in it wasn't really on-topic, if that's inappropriate please delete.

In this video Martin Mallinson of ESS explains Sigma-delta DAC technology which is interesting itself, but from 22 minutes in he makes a clear case for people being able to hear unmeasurable, let alone supposedly inaudible, differences between DACs, supported by what appears to be scientific theory. I wondered how this sits with opinion on ASR given it seems at first watch to be at odds with some of what is taken as gospel here. Note I'm neither sufficiently expert to validate this nor a subjectivist trying to justify my position since I tend to sit in the science camp myself.

 

[mansr]

Uh-huh.

 

[lashto]

You might wanna change "hearing inaudible" in the thread title (e.g. simply deleting the word 'inaudible' should work).
I came here to see some fun magic tricks and I am very disappointed now...

 

[mnemonix]

You might wanna change "hearing inaudible" in the thread title (e.g. simply deleting the word 'inaudible' should work).
I came here to see some fun magic tricks and I am very disappointed now...

Done and sorry to disappoint you. By inaudible I meant supposedly inaudible.

Am I to asume from mansr's comment that this is marketing snake oil dressed up as science? To be fair Martin appears, to me at least, to know what he's talking about from a technical point of view.

 

[mansr]

Am I to asume from mansr's comment that this is marketing snake oil dressed up as science? To be fair Martin appears, to me at least, to know what he's talking about from a technical point of view.

He probably knows that he's talking bollocks.

 

[magicscreen]

Uh-huh.

Ha-ha-ha.

 

[SIY]

I've taken video link this from a post by minimalist in another unrelated thread because my interest in it wasn't really on-topic, if that's inappropriate please delete.

In this video Martin Mallinson of ESS explains Sigma-delta DAC technology which is interesting itself, but from 22 minutes in he makes a clear case for people being able to hear unmeasurable, let alone supposedly inaudible, differences between DACs, supported by what appears to be scientific theory. I wondered how this sits with opinion on ASR given it seems at first watch to be at odds with some of what is taken as gospel here. Note I'm neither sufficiently expert to validate this nor a subjectivist trying to justify my position since I tend to sit in the science camp myself.

He refers to the... ummm... questionable Oohashi stuff, which regularly gets trotted out by the snake oil guys.

 

[gvl]

Did he actually say we can hear what we can't measure? I'm left with the impression the main message was that the audibility of DS differences lies in the noise performance, which can certainly be measured. The rest is just garnish.

 

[pozz]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/two-old-ess-talks.9216/

 

[Matias]

TL/DR but does this have to do with it?
https://asa.scitation.org/doi/full/10.1121/1.4908566

 

[mnemonix]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/two-old-ess-talks.9216/

Thanks.

 

[mnemonix]

Did he actually say we can hear what we can't measure? I'm left with the impression the main message was that the audibility of DS differences lies in the noise performance, which can certainly be measured. The rest is just garnish.

He does actually state that yes. Seems Pozz beat me to it by at least a year.

 

[RayDunzl]

That's the 2011 version.

Where's the 2020 version?

 

[mnemonix]

TL/DR but does this have to do with it?
https://asa.scitation.org/doi/full/10.1121/1.4908566

I don't think so since this is simply about measuring very quiet things - essentially below the noise floor of the measuring equipment itself, rather than hearing them, but it immediately reminded me of Astrophotography techniques which involve stacking multiple images or measurements to amplify the desired signal and subtracting multiple darks and flats taken with the same camera or measuring device to eliminate noise inherent in the system.

 

[mansr]

Are the rest of the slides available without watching the entire video?

 

[Jimbob54]

View attachment 76926

Are the rest of the slides available without watching the entire video?

They were and I think the other 2 seminars they did still are - but I cant see this one http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en/support/downloads/

This page links the one in question but its now a broken link https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113342.20

 

[mansr]

This page links the one in question but its now a broken link https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113342.20

Thanks, found it on the Internet Archive.

 

[minimalist]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/two-old-ess-talks.9216/

Thanks, missed that.