• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Topping preamp

Gyroscopics

Active Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
105
Likes
71
I should put some numbers around my statements and clarify what I'm trying to piece together related to this thread.
How can I build a high SINAD stereo+sub setup with separate simple pieces for a reasonable price? So I can see and experience what a well engineered high SINAD system actually sounds like and see what all the audiophile fuss is about.

I have a reasonably priced system similar to what you described:

RPi/Sonos ==> D70(XLR) ==> in-line attenuator ==> Hypex NC500MP x2 ==> speaker

D70(RCA) ==> Massdrop THX789 (RCA-out) ==> Rhytmik L12
Massdrop THX789 amp ==> headphones

I used to have a Rolls SX45 between the DAC and sub. I recently removed the SX45 from the signal path to minimize clutter. I also used a Nobosound XLR volume control between the DAC and amp before, but replaced that with a -20db in-line attenuator. This allows me to operate the D70 at optimal digital volume level (between -10db to 0db) and use the D70 remote to adjust the volume. The THX789's RCA-out is a pass-through line-out (not pre-outs). Therefore it is not affected by THX-789's volume knob which make them great for this setup.

If the Pre90 is reasonably priced, I'll probably buy the D90+Pre90 combo.
 

Gyroscopics

Active Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
105
Likes
71
Pre90 may actually sound like a product that doesn't need to exist. But other than the people who really like relay switching volume control. It's for the preparation of the higher end mono block power amps.

I prefer a relay-switched volume control to feed my Hypex NCore NC500MP monoblocks (see my earlier post above). I tried the Nobosound with Alps potentiometer but its impedance varies with volume. Hence I replaced it with a fixed in-line attenuator. Schitt Freya is another option but I don't like its form-factor (and color).
 
OP
typericey

typericey

Senior Member
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
304
Likes
461
@JohnYang1997 if the Pre90 has 1 XLR + 1 RCA input, can you please make it two different inputs that can be toggled?

Or, can I at least connect two different sources to the XLR and RCA even if it is just one input in the circuit? (Of course I wont play both sources at the same time)
 

JohnYang1997

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Audio Company
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
Messages
7,175
Likes
18,292
Location
China
@JohnYang1997 if the Pre90 has 1 XLR + 1 RCA input, can you please make it two different inputs that can be toggled?

Or, can I at least connect two different sources to the XLR and RCA even if it is just one input in the circuit? (Of course I wont play both sources at the same time)
No. There's simply no space.
 

nobody

Member
Joined
May 26, 2020
Messages
27
Likes
41
As the extender will be separate box, it will have it's own connector on Pre90? Or it will use the XLR in and/or RCA in? Because, when I look at back of A90, there is really no left space for any other input.
 

JohnYang1997

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Audio Company
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
Messages
7,175
Likes
18,292
Location
China
As the extender will be separate box, it will have it's own connector on Pre90? Or it will use the XLR in and/or RCA in? Because, when I look at back of A90, there is really no left space for any other input.
A proprietary connecter is used for connection between the extender and the pre90.
 

JohnYang1997

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Audio Company
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
Messages
7,175
Likes
18,292
Location
China
I think, that typericey asks if the XLR in and RCA in will be two separate inputs as on A90. So we can switch between, for example, D90 connected via XLR and Phono preamp connected via RCA.
Oh yes. In that case, yes. All inputs are switchable via knob and remote control.
 

Chrise36

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
1,043
Likes
359
I should put some numbers around my statements and clarify what I'm trying to piece together related to this thread.
How can I build a high SINAD stereo+sub setup with separate simple pieces for a reasonable price? So I can see and experience what a well engineered high SINAD system actually sounds like and see what all the audiophile fuss is about. And judge for myself if it's worth chasing or just buy another Denon AVR and be happy. :)

I can use my Raspberry pi as a streamer and PEQ to handle room correction.
the Topping E30 has a SINAD of 112DB.-check
The VTV purifi1400a 2ch amp is ~$1200 and and the purifi amp tested by Amir has a SINAD of 104DB. -check
Way to hook up my subwoofer and get volume control without ending up back in AVR SINAD territory. ??
The Denon AVR-X3700H gives us a SINAD of 98DB. Can I do better than this? Can I put together a system that gets me ~104DB SINAD with the Amplifier being the limiting factor?
The minidsp nanodigi to twin Topping E30 is a cheap solution.I think Amir has had problems with the Denon driving the Purifi amps leading to lower SINAD.
 

bigLP

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 8, 2020
Messages
71
Likes
72
Location
Rochester, NY
Pre90 may actually sound like a product that doesn't need to exist. But other than the people who really like relay switching volume control. It's for the preparation of the higher end mono block power amps.
When will it be available?
 

Gyroscopics

Active Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
105
Likes
71
Oh yes. In that case, yes. All inputs are switchable via knob and remote control.

That's great news about the Pre90.

The lack of remote on A90 is what hinders me from buying it for pre-amp use. (Headphone amp functionality is only secondary as I have so many other amps for that). Without remote, I would still have to use the DAC's remote to change volume and that defeats the purpose of a remote-less preamp such as the A90. Not all people are limited to desktop speakers where their Pre-Amp is within arms reach while listening to music.
 

TimW

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
1,065
Likes
1,406
Location
Seattle, WA
I see the pre-amp chain hierarchy in increasing requirements as

DAC+Vol Control
DAC+Vol Control+ Source switch (2-3 analog, 2-3 digital)
DAC+Vol Control+ Source switch (2-3 analog, 2-3 digital) + Sub output with crossover
DAC+Vol Control+ Source switch (2-3 analog, 2-3 digital) + Sub output with crossover + HT Bypass
DAC+Vol Control+ Source switch (2-3 analog, 2-3 digital) + Sub output with crossover + HT Bypass + DSP RoomEQ
DAC+Vol Control+ Source switch (2-3 analog, 2-3 digital) + Sub output with crossover + HT Bypass + DSP RoomEQ + Streamers

The market is fragmented between the above combinations of needs to cater to just one or two.
The all-in-one boxes get restrictive and expensive as you go up that chain.
If you can figure out how to cater to those multiple needs with some partitioning of those functions in 2-3 boxes so they can be easily chained, then people could buy just what they need and add more as needed.

The obsession with good measurements is great but I am afraid that it is making many boutique shops ignore larger customer needs over a broader segment.

The world needs more modern preamplifier options! Personally I don't need HT Bypass but it should absolutely be included because there is demand for it and good audio gear is adaptable enough to be used in different kinds of systems. The planned Topping Pre90 seems like such a niche product to me. It's basically just an analog volume control and input switch. No way to properly integrate suboofer(s), apply EQ or ARC without another device that could just entirely replace the Pre90. And what about other useful features that seem to be lost to antiquity now? Like 12V trigger output or switched AC outputs, volume level settings for each input, input naming, tone controls, loudness, fixed outputs, auto-on, balance, universal remote control, phono input, multiple outputs, etc. I understand that the Pre90 is not going to have features like these but hopefully Topping has considered making a more fully featured unit.

If the 90 series units are meant to be used with Toppings upcoming monoblocks then I'm really curious how they will integrate. If the Pre90 has no trigger output or switched AC outputs then how am I to turn on the monoblocks? Will there be a universal remote contol and IR receivers on the monoblocks too? Or do they actually expect us to press the power button on the D90, Pre90, and each monoblock separately every time we want to start or stop listening to music?
 

Gyroscopics

Active Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
105
Likes
71
If the 90 series units are meant to be used with Toppings upcoming monoblocks then I'm really curious how they will integrate. If the Pre90 has no trigger output or switched AC outputs then how am I to turn on the monoblocks? Will there be a universal remote contol and IR receivers on the monoblocks too? Or do they actually expect us to press the power button on the D90, Pre90, and each monoblock separately every time we want to start or stop listening to music?

I think @JohnYang1997 expect us to use one of these in lieu of the trigger output:

triplite.jpgIoT Relay.jpgTrickleStar.jpg
 

Vasr

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
1,409
Likes
1,922
No way to properly integrate suboofer(s), apply EQ or ARC without another device that could just entirely replace the Pre90. And what about other useful features that seem to be lost to antiquity now? Like 12V trigger output or switched AC outputs, volume level settings for each input, input naming, tone controls, loudness, fixed outputs, auto-on, balance, universal remote control, phono input, multiple outputs, etc.

The problem is that such boxes if they exist get panned on sites like this because they didn't measure as well as a $10 dongle which didn't have any of that. Even if no one can hear the difference. Until the evaluations and ratings get some weight for convenience and features, the incentive is to strip down.

Not a comment on Topping but in general the world of audio seems to be headed towards segmentation

- a set of manufacturers that build a box around a reference design for a chip which determines all the functionality. Just focus on doing the reference design well. Lower price points, good measurements close to the theoretical specs of the chip possible, mass-market direct sales, low integration potential. Mostly Asian OEMs.

- a set of manufacturers that do specialized circuitry for a single function and do it well. Don't have the resources to develop or market a lot of functionality but will have best-in-class performance. Not cheap but not very expensive. Remain in niche markets. Like Okta or Topping or even Schiit to some extent. The limiting factor to growth here seems to be software/firmware capabilities of the manufacturer. Most of them more comfortable with hardware development than software.

- a set of manufacturers that design a functional well-integrated box with carefully chosen features and then developing the proprietary circuitry and required software/firmware to deliver on that functional design. The ones who do separates here have an existential crisis because of competition from mass-market all-in-one brands. And this is why those kinds of well-designed separates solutions are going to slowly disappear or stay in high-end niche markets..

If the 90 series units are meant to be used with Toppings upcoming monoblocks then I'm really curious how they will integrate. If the Pre90 has no trigger output or switched AC outputs then how am I to turn on the monoblocks? Will there be a universal remote contol and IR receivers on the monoblocks too? Or do they actually expect us to press the power button on the D90, Pre90, and each monoblock separately every time we want to start or stop listening to music?

Auto sensing input? Seems to be becoming more of a thing these days.
 

Gyroscopics

Active Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
105
Likes
71
I have a few of those Digital Loggers IOT Relay power strips and they don't work without a trigger voltage. The TrickleStar power strips would work though.

My bad, I usually integrate the IoT Relay with Arduino or RaspberryPi. As @Vasr mentioned, input sensing power amp is another option. My Parasound amps have this functionality and I prefer to use it over triggers.
 

CDMC

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
1,172
Likes
2,321
There are active analog crossovers available for reasonable prices such as the Rolls SX45. It has somewhat shallow 12 dB/octave slopes of unspecified type, non ideal input and output impedance, and no distortion or noise specs. It would get the job done as far as crossover goes but you don't get hardware EQ and measured performance is likely to be poor.

If you are willing to DIY some, there is also this option. It has 24 dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley slopes and likely better performance than the Rolls. You have to get two, put together an enclosure, and supply power though. And the crossover frequency is set by proprietary modules. And the THD+N spec of 0.0086% corresponds to a SINAD of 81 dB which is mediocre. And still no hardware based EQ.
.

An option if using XLRs is the DBX 223xs. $199, LR 24db crossover, adjustable and .004% THD+N (88db SINAD).

https://dbxpro.com/en/products/223xs
 
OP
typericey

typericey

Senior Member
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
304
Likes
461
Oh yes. In that case, yes. All inputs are switchable via knob and remote control.

This is good news for me. 2 inputs are all I need. Looking forward to more updates on its development, as well as details on price and when it will be available.
 
Top Bottom