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GR Research X-LS Encore Kit Speaker Review

ozric

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Now if you wanted to really get an idea of the difference, if any, all the crossover upgrades make, one would build a cabinet with norez, and build multiple external crossover boards with each upgrade. Box and drivers remain the same as you measure and listen to each crossover.

You could even connect the crossovers to the speaker with a terminal cup or the tube connectors to see if that makes a difference.
 

ctrl

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I don't want to say that all your effort is for naught, but it most likely is. It likely will not mean anything to people who are convinced that costlier capacitors sound different from cheaper capacitors that measure the same.

I wanted to take seriously those people who think they can hear a sound change after replacing a cheap foil capacitor with a high-end capacitor in the high frequency path of the crossover (and ignore the possible psychological effects that can lead to such a perception).

To then show step by step that this change in sound is very likely caused by slightly different capacitance values, since only minimal differences occur when measuring really identical capacitors, in the frequency range relevant for humans. And this completely independent of the type of measurement IMD, CSD, FR,...
and that these results cannot possibly be reconciled with the sound assessments made in the capacitor reviews.

At least I tried...
 

jtwrace

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I don't get it. You gave the speaker a good rating. Why is he unhappy? All that this is going to do is prove that all the extra stuff doesn't do anything.
Now that he knows it's not a total failure, he can now build up the "gold standard" pair to make it look even better. The only thing that can't be fixed is the directivity...that's a design flaw.
 

Rick Sykora

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I don't get it. You gave the speaker a good rating. Why is he unhappy? All that this is going to do is prove that all the extra stuff doesn't do anything.

I can answer that. At the least, he thinks the round over and No Rez will improve some of the measurements.
 

KaiserSoze

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It occurs to me that there may be a way to demonstrate that a simple mod that costs essentially nothing will do more for this speaker than all of the improvements in the version that is soon to be shipped.

Ctrl gave us convincing reason to believe that the peak in the off-axis response above the crossover point is due partly to diffraction, exacerbating the directivity mismatch. When he doubled the baffle width of a similar speaker he was modeling in simulation software, thus forcing the diffraction ripple to shift to half-lower frequency, the response peak above the crossover point was reduced in magnitude by about half.

It follows that any modification that is effective at suppressing the diffraction ripple in the off-axis response should have a similar effect, although not likely as strong. Studies of the effect of wool felt have shown it to be effective at reducing diffraction. Genuine wool felt, with thickness 1/2" or more, placed strategically to either side of the tweeter, with height matching the diameter of the tweeter flange and extending from the lateral edge of the flange to the start of the baffle edge roundoff, will likely suppress diffraction to an extent sufficient to be discernible in the measurements.

A comparison of the version already tested to the version soon to arrive will likely show that rounding the baffle edge hasn't any appreciable effect at smoothing out the off-axis response in the vicinity of the crossover.

A comparison using either version (preferably the one soon to arrive) with and without the use of wool felt as described above will possibly show that the felt is more effective than the edge rounding at suppressing the diffraction, and will possibly show that this simple inexpensive mod is more effective at improving this speaker than all the costly mods that have been applied to it.
 

Rick Sykora

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It occurs to me that there may be a way to demonstrate that a simple mod that costs essentially nothing will do more for this speaker than all of the improvements in the version that is soon to be shipped.

Ctrl gave us convincing reason to believe that the peak in the off-axis response above the crossover point is due partly to diffraction, exacerbating the directivity mismatch. When he doubled the baffle width of a similar speaker he was modeling in simulation software, thus forcing the diffraction ripple to shift to half-lower frequency, the response peak above the crossover point was reduced in magnitude by about half.

It follows that any modification that is effective at suppressing the diffraction ripple in the off-axis response should have a similar effect, although not likely as strong. Studies of the effect of wool felt have shown it to be effective at reducing diffraction. Genuine wool felt, with thickness 1/2" or more, placed strategically to either side of the tweeter, with height matching the diameter of the tweeter flange and extending from the lateral edge of the flange to the start of the baffle edge roundoff, will likely suppress diffraction to an extent sufficient to be discernible in the measurements.

A comparison of the version already tested to the version soon to arrive will likely show that rounding the baffle edge hasn't any appreciable effect at smoothing out the off-axis response in the vicinity of the crossover.

A comparison using either version (preferably the one soon to arrive) with and without the use of wool felt as described above will possibly show that the felt is more effective than the edge rounding at suppressing the diffraction, and will possibly show that this simple inexpensive mod is more effective at improving this speaker than all the costly mods that have been applied to it.

As long as my UMIK is sufficiently sensitive and F13 felt is adequate, I can try this before I ship second speaker to Amir. :cool:
 

Rick Sykora

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Now if you wanted to really get an idea of the difference, if any, all the crossover upgrades make, one would build a cabinet with norez, and build multiple external crossover boards with each upgrade. Box and drivers remain the same as you measure and listen to each crossover.

You could even connect the crossovers to the speaker with a terminal cup or the tube connectors to see if that makes a difference.

Welcome to ASR!

Agree your proposal would be a interesting experiment. As neither Amir or I will be getting upgraded crossover components,will have to punt on it though. With the current plan, ASR will review the two extremes. In talking to Danny, these are the most popular options anyway.:cool:
 

MZKM

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The only thing that can't be fixed is the directivity...that's a design flaw.
index.php

A portion of that directivity mismatch could be attributed to the cabinet diffraction. Assuming the incoming sample has a round over, that may improve it a bit.
 
D

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Quick update: Rick has been going back and forth with Danny. Where we landed is that Danny will be sending me a pair he has built for testing. I am assuming his pair has all of his optional components.
Make sure you well document the increase in cost associated with all the optional components. That really is the important variable here.

Dave.
 

KaiserSoze

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As long as my UMIK is sufficiently sensitive and F13 felt is adequate, I can try this before I ship second speaker to Amir. :cool:

The only information or insight I have into what sort of felt would be needed is what I read this afternoon in the writeup by David Ralph, which he wrote twenty years ago.

https://www.speakerdesign.net/felt_amelioration/feltssenter.html

I have no idea whether there is more recent research that is available. But based on what I saw there, it seems likely that F13 at least 1/2" thick, placed to both sides of the tweeter and extending from the edge of the flange to the start of the roundoff of the baffle edge (or possibly sticking out past the point where the baffle edge begins to recede), and with height matching the diameter of the tweeter flange, should produce a measurable attenuation of the off-axis response rise just above the crossover point. I say "should" because if felt is truly effective at suppressing diffraction ripple this is what we should see, given that ctrl has pretty much demonstrated that about half of the response rise just above the crossover point is actually a diffraction effect. But this isn't something that I'd bet on. It would be an interesting experiment and one that has the potential to yield useful information.
 

Francis Vaughan

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Maybe he hopes Amir's subjective portion will show they do.
The subjective is never going to be settled. But that is not what we want to see anyway. Mostly not anyway. Whether the small roundovers make a useful difference and the effect of the magic stuffing will be clear on measurements. Capacitor and tubes can be ignored unless there is a clear change in frequency response. What most expect is that apart from very minor changes at higher frequencies the main flaws, especially directivity errors will remain.
The claimed value of NoRez is for me the interesting part. IMHO it is the wrong way of addressing the issues, and an outrageously expensive and oversold way. So seeing the results here will very interesting. I’m prepared to be proven wrong.
 

KaiserSoze

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index.php

A portion of that directivity mismatch could be attributed to the cabinet diffraction. Assuming the incoming sample has a round over, that may improve it a bit.

Uh, yes and probably no. The simulation study that ctrl did demonstrated convincingly that the response rise that begins at 2 kHz is partly due to directivity mismatch and partly due to diffraction. The magnitude of the rise decreased by about half when he forced the diffraction effect to shift to half-lower frequency, by doubling the width of the baffle. But as for whether the 3/8" round over of the baffle edge will have any effect at suppressing the diffraction effect at this wavelength, about 6", it isn't likely. According to careful studies done by Siegfried Linkwitz, the roundoff radius would need to be at least 3/4" to have any appreciable diffraction-suppressing effect at this wavelength. If the measurements of the soon-to-arrive speaker indicate otherwise, I suppose I'll have to eat my words and then go wake up Linkwitz and ask him to explain how it happened.
 

KaiserSoze

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The subjective is never going to be settled. But that is not what we want to see anyway. Mostly not anyway. Whether the small roundovers make a useful difference and the effect of the magic stuffing will be clear on measurements. Capacitor and tubes can be ignored unless there is a clear change in frequency response. What most expect is that apart from very minor changes at higher frequencies the main flaws, especially directivity errors will remain.
The claimed value of NoRez is for me the interesting part. IMHO it is the wrong way of addressing the issues, and an outrageously expensive and oversold way. So seeing the results here will very interesting. I’m prepared to be proven wrong.

I don't recall seeing anything in the on-axis response that suggested any issue with standing waves inside the enclosures. Given the stark difference between the on-axis response and the off-axis response, there is no possible way that standing waves inside the enclosure would be the cause of the issues in the off-axis response. This is one of the things that is puzzling me. What kind of improvement would possibly be identified in the measurements that would reasonably be assigned to the improved internal damping?
 

Francis Vaughan

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I don't recall seeing anything in the on-axis response that suggested any issue with standing waves inside the enclosures. Given the stark difference between the on-axis response and the off-axis response, there is no possible way that standing waves inside the enclosure would be the cause of the issues in the off-axis response. This is one of the things that is puzzling me. What kind of improvement would possibly be identified in the measurements that would reasonably be assigned to the improved internal damping?
Ah, sorry, I wasn’t being as clear as I might. No, the directivity and other major issues won’t be affected. But there will be changes to the bass and lower mid. There is a whole lot a waffle about the merits of the kind of damping and what resonances it can affect. The design of NoRrez is very specific and claims are made about the effect on sound quality. If it works as claimed there should be clear measurable changes. Then the question might be whether these changes are desirable. Eventually there is a question of cost effectiveness. Right now the preferred cabinet damping costs a similar amount to the bass driver it is supposed to be magically transforming the sound of.
 

bunkbail

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It will be nice if you can make a quick subjective listening comparison against any Revel bookshelves, maybe the Revel M16 since that Danny's Encores build will be much closer to that price range.
 

maty

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The OLD design has problems regardless of the shape of the cabinet.

GR-Research-X-LS-Encore-horizontal

GR-Research-X-LS-Encore-horizontal.png



Much more interesting is the NEW desing.

GR-Research-NX-studio-horizontal-off-axis-resized

GR-Research-NX-studio-horizontal-off-axis-resized.png


Very meritorious considering that the ribbon tweeter (waveguide) is open baffle.


Update, NX-Studio ribbon tweeter (rear)
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=171448.msg1816325#msg1816325
 

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