GR Research X-LS Encore Kit Speaker Review

[Francis Vaughan]

I would really like to see the high spec build tested. IMHO the add ons are worthless. (Other than some cheap generic damping material.) But it needs proving. I’m happy to kick say $50 into helping the cause. If there are a few more like minded happy to fund it, we can band together and donate.
Double the cost of the speaker kit is little more than an insane rip off. It seems to assert that a high spec capacitor or bit of metal tube can make a bigger difference than upgrading to very respectable drivers from the likes of SB, where the end product is closer in quality to speakers from Revel.
The detractors of this review place themselves in a very precarious position. They made some very specific claims about the efficacy of the upgrade parts. There is every chance they will be exposed as fools and charlatans.

 

[richard12511]

There is incredible hostility there that is getting in the way of facts. This was just posted:

View attachment 75899

There was no such goal for either one of us. Indeed, our goal was to build this speaker in the most defensible way possible in case it did not perform well. The strategy then became following everything as documented by the Kit developer.

We discussed adding options and indeed I was in favor of either just putting the tube connectors or every option he has. But then Rick added up the cost and I got worried that it would hugely inflate the cost of what should be a budget speaker. So we decided for the sample #1 go with the baseline as created by the KIT developer. If something is wrong with that configuration, the blame goes squarely at Danny for creating this option.

Really, my money and Rick's time is not free in here. The most expensive budget speaker I buy for testing is $200. Right now we are in for $300 already for this pair. Adding options would easily take this to $500, way beyond any interest I have in using our limited funds for.

But as I noted, if someone wants to buy the options and send them to us, we can test the other sample that way. If they are just going to complain, then it shows they are not willing to do 1/10th of what we did to test this speaker.

I tried reading more, but it's so frustrating. Just as I was starting to get sleepy, now I'm wide awake again .

I know it's a waste of time, but I'd love for you to test every version of this speaker from $200 to $400, one at a time. Stock + caps, stock + caps + tube connects, stock + caps + tube connects + 3/8 roundover. Objectively show which upgrades are actually worth it, and which are snake oil. I'd love to read their rationalizations of why the review is still sub par even after you do all that.

I'd donate $50 or so.

 

[KaiserSoze]

I would really like to see the high spec build tested. IMHO the add ons are worthless. (Other than some cheap generic damping material.) But it needs proving. I’m happy to kick say $50 into helping the cause. If there are a few more like minded happy to fund it, we can band together and donate.
Double the cost of the speaker kit is little more than an insane rip off. It seems to assert that a high spec capacitor or bit of metal tube can make a bigger difference than upgrading to very respectable drivers from the likes of SB, where the end product is closer in quality to speakers from Revel.
The detractors of this review place themselves in a very precarious position. They made some very specific claims about the efficacy of the upgrade parts. There is every chance they will be exposed as fools and charlatans.

But they would most likely say that the measurements don't matter because the measurements aren't what determines whether the speaker sounds good. I can almost promise that this is what they will say.

 

[ctrl]

I would really like to see the high spec build tested. ...
It seems to assert that a high spec capacitor or bit of metal tube can make a bigger difference than upgrading to very respectable drivers from the likes of SB,...

I know it's a waste of time, but I'd love for you to test every version of this speaker from $200 to $400, one at a time. Stock + caps, stock + caps + tube connects, stock + caps + tube connects + 3/8 roundover. Objectively show which upgrades are actually worth it, and which are snake oil.

I would also like to see a comparison of "standard versus high spec" build.
The selection of components without having access to an immense stock is not easy. Even the slightest deviations have a measurable influence on the frequency response - obviously
If the entire tweeter crossover branch changes by +-0.2 dB due to a capacitor exchange, then this is audible, but not due to the better capacitor quality.

For all who have found their way from the audiocircle.com-forum to this forum, here are my attempts to get on the track of the "component-sound" with measurements of the acoustic differences - a pure technical measurement consideration of the topic (apart from my comments and bad English )

Capacitor upgrade in crossover - Is it audible?
Capacitor upgrade in crossover - Is it audible? - Part 2
Capacitor upgrade in crossover - You CAN'T handle the TRUTH! - Part 3

Replace resistor by low-inductance resistor - Is it audible?

 

[Francis Vaughan]

But they would most likely say that the measurements don't matter because the measurements aren't what determines whether the speaker sounds good. I can almost promise that this is what they will say.

Probably true. But right now they are dismissing the measurements for reasons of component quality or meeting the hive mind’s build instructions. New measurements will act to falsify the current assertions. The usual pseudoscience arguments will move the goalposts. To a large extent that is exactly what is expected. No different to flat earthers or Homeopaths. I will take some satisfaction when such predictions come true. I’m certainly not worrying about convincing fools. Life is too short.

 

[ace_xp2]

I'm down for $50+, let's put this thing in the dirt.

 

[Billy Budapest]

The main issue I have with speaker kits like this is that they only include carpentry plans and not preassembled cabinets or at least flat pack cabinets that can be easily assembled. Most people do not have good carpentry skills or the proper tools. It is a big barrier to entry for the hobbyist.

 

[tjf]

Hi all,

Stupid question time...

With all the talk about baffle edge "round-overs" affecting edge diffraction, upper-mid/treble range freq aberrations, etc., etc., what say you all about the old trick of thick felt blankets or various absorptive materials surrounding the treble units, i.e.-- Spica TC 50/60, Duntechs, et al??

 

[KaiserSoze]

I would also like to see a comparison of "standard versus high spec" build.
The selection of components without having access to an immense stock is not easy. Even the slightest deviations have a measurable influence on the frequency response - obviously
If the entire tweeter crossover branch changes by +-0.2 dB due to a capacitor exchange, then this is audible, but not due to the better capacitor quality.

For all who have found their way from the audiocircle.com-forum to this forum, here are my attempts to get on the track of the "component-sound" with measurements of the acoustic differences - a pure technical measurement consideration of the topic (apart from my comments and bad English )

Capacitor upgrade in crossover - Is it audible?
Capacitor upgrade in crossover - Is it audible? - Part 2
Capacitor upgrade in crossover - You CAN'T handle the TRUTH! - Part 3

Replace resistor by low-inductance resistor - Is it audible?

You are very ambitious. A couple of thoughts.

First, the claims they make with respect to the difference in wire-wound and "non-inductive" resistors does not bug me much, nowhere near as much as the claims they make with respect to capacitors and the use of bypass (or bypass-bypass ) capacitors.

The resistor claim does not bother me so much because there is at least a theoretical basis for a real difference, such that it is plausible. With capacitors, no one has ever (so far as I know) offered a theoretical explanation for how two different capacitors that give identical results when placed on an impedance bridge could give different results when used in the crossover within a speaker. If two different capacitors affect the sound differently when used in a crossover, they would surely give different results when placed on an impedance bridge.

I don't want to say that all your effort is for naught, but it most likely is. It likely will not mean anything to people who are convinced that costlier capacitors sound different from cheaper capacitors that measure the same. For the most part no kind of objective measurements mean anything to them. To get anywhere with them, following the only approach that seems likely to be productive, the first step is to get them to acknowledge that when claims of this nature are made (i.e., claims that assert a difference in sonic quality that does not show up in the basic quoted parameter values of the component) that they bear the burden of proof. By analogy, if they were to think up some new theory that challenges some established theory in physics, it would not be reasonable for them to simply announce the theory without offering evidence and to expect other people to go to the time and effort to disprove the theory. If they cannot be persuaded to understand this much about what is and what isn't reasonable, there simply isn't any point in engaging them. If one of them claims that resistors don't actually generate heat and that this is something that only cheap resistors do, it would not be reasonable to expect anyone to go to the trouble to prove to them that all resistors generate heat at a rate inversely proportional to the resistance. The burden of proof will be on them to demonstrate that there is a type of resistor that does not generate heat at a rate inversely proportional to the resistance. If they do not understand this much, there isn't any point in trying to reason with them, because they are not reasonable people.

 

[richard12511]

2 things:
1) Way too much time being spent on negative energy.
2) Why is it that it largely seems to come down to “objective vs subjective” rather than “objective and subjective”? We are a relatively small community. It seems counterproductive to bash each other. Agree. Disagree. But we don’t need entire forums talking shit about each other. For pages and pages, too. That’s dumb.

/my $0.02

I got sucked in reading all those comments.

^
me last night.

You're right, though. If we actually want to change minds, we're not gonna do that by bashing them. Even if we do succeed in proving all of their claims wrong, as Dale Carnegie would say, "a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still".

 

[KaiserSoze]

Probably true. But right now they are dismissing the measurements for reasons of component quality or meeting the hive mind’s build instructions. New measurements will act to falsify the current assertions. The usual pseudoscience arguments will move the goalposts. To a large extent that is exactly what is expected. No different to flat earthers or Homeopaths. I will take some satisfaction when such predictions come true. I’m certainly not worrying about convincing fools. Life is too short.

Hmmm. You must not have heard the news of the discovery of a homeopathic cure for Covid-19. The fellow who discovered it sleeps under a pyramid and insists that it will only work for people who sleep under pyramids. A study has been undertaken by a multinational team of mentalists to determine whether it works equally well on people who sleep under other, non-pyramidal geometric grids. (Kreskin was brought out of deep-coma retirement to lead the study.) Some people say that as long as you sleep under a roof that is roughly pyramidal in shape you'll be okay, but this also is under investigation.

 

[KaiserSoze]

Hi all,

Stupid question time...

With all the talk about baffle edge "round-overs" affecting edge diffraction, upper-mid/treble range freq aberrations, etc., etc., what say you all about the old trick of thick felt blankets or various absorptive materials surrounding the treble units, i.e.-- Spica TC 50/60, Duntechs, et al??

Anecdotal evidence suggests that it is probably effective. The way it would work would be by absorbing the sound energy that would eventually illuminate the edge. A modest waveguide will do the same thing for the lower tweeter frequencies where dispersion is strong enough to strongly illuminate the baffle edge, and a modest waveguide has the other benefit of matching the directivity of the tweeter and woofer at the crossover frequency. In a three-way speaker where the directivity mismatch is not such a big deal and a waveguide possibly not desired, it is effective to place the tweeter 1/3 of the way from one edge and 2/3 of the way from the other edge. However this is only effective at suppressing the ripple in the on-axis response, not in the off-axis response, and it does not suppress the 1st peak in the ripple. The use of felt may well be a very effective way to suppress the ripple in the off-axis response and might be the best way to suppress the prominent 1st peak in the on-axis ripple. I expect that some experimentation would be needed to determine the necessary thickness and the optimal density. I wonder whether the use of felt in the space between drivers would reduce intermodulation, especially modulation of the tweeter by the woofer.

 

[hex168]

Anecdotal evidence suggests that it is probably effective. The way it would work would be by absorbing the sound energy that would eventually illuminate the edge. A modest waveguide will do the same thing for the lower tweeter frequencies where dispersion is strong enough to strongly illuminate the baffle edge, and a modest waveguide has the other benefit of matching the directivity of the tweeter and woofer at the crossover frequency. In a three-way speaker where the directivity mismatch is not such a big deal and a waveguide possibly not desired, it is effective to place the tweeter 1/3 of the way from one edge and 2/3 of the way from the other edge. However this is only effective at suppressing the ripple in the on-axis response, not in the off-axis response, and it does not suppress the 1st peak in the ripple. The use of felt may well be a very effective way to suppress the ripple in the off-axis response and might be the best way to suppress the prominent 1st peak in the on-axis ripple. I expect that some experimentation would be needed to determine the necessary thickness and the optimal density. I wonder whether the use of felt in the space between drivers would reduce intermodulation, especially modulation of the tweeter by the woofer.

 

[hex168]

For measurements of the effect of felt on diffraction, see:

https://www.speakerdesign.net/

Scroll down to the section on diffraction.

 

[amirm]

Quick update: Rick has been going back and forth with Danny. Where we landed is that Danny will be sending me a pair he has built for testing. I am assuming his pair has all of his optional components.

 

[Rick Sykora]

For measurements of the effect of felt on diffraction, see:

https://www.speakerdesign.net/

Scroll down to the section on diffraction.

Wecome to ASR and thanks for sharing this. I had lost track of it as it was where I found which felt to acquire for diffraction remediation purposes.

Was also great to see that Dave Ralph archived John Kreskovsky’s work. Would have been a shame if the audio community lost his extensive work on open baffle and other research.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Quick update: Rick has been going back and forth with Danny. Where we landed is that Danny will be sending me a pair he has built for testing. I am assuming his pair has all of his optional components.

Pretty sure his pair has all the upgrades.

It is the ones in his most recent videos, but have not seen all the videos as yet.

Danny told me it would be a couple of weeks before he can ship them.

 

[Thomas_A]

a

For measurements of the effect of felt on diffraction, see:

https://www.speakerdesign.net/

Scroll down to the section on diffraction.

Felt works. I use it but not primarily for diffraction issues but to reduce boundary reflections. Increases clarity.

 

[MZKM]

Quick update: Rick has been going back and forth with Danny. Where we landed is that Danny will be sending me a pair he has built for testing. I am assuming his pair has all of his optional components.

Going to be interesting to see what differences arise. However, frequency response differences could be chalked up to driver tolerances. What is the claimed benefit of the upgraded crossover components, less distortion, or actual frequency response differences?

 

[KaiserSoze]

Quick update: Rick has been going back and forth with Danny. Where we landed is that Danny will be sending me a pair he has built for testing. I am assuming his pair has all of his optional components.

I don't get it. You gave the speaker a good rating. Why is he unhappy? All that this is going to do is prove that all the extra stuff doesn't do anything.