HD6XX bass

[bobbooo]

Because of the HF hearing loss, or something else?

This is likely. Less bass will perceptually result in a brighter overall spectral tilt, which could subjectively compensate for HF hearing loss. It would be useful for people who prefer a minimal to moderate bass boost (less than the Harman target) to take and post results of a hearing test.

 

[bobbooo]

some people being biased towards their ears only, and others really missing the chest, neck, etc vibration sensations

Again this is likely. Full-size sound systems / speakers (or standmounters with subs) will provide visceral, tactile bass, felt throughout the body. This will be all but missing in headphones. There can be slight tactile bass with over-ear headphones that have an adequate bass response though, being felt on and around the ear. There's absolutely none for in-ear headphones though, which is I suspect partly why the preferred bass boost is higher for them, to compensate for this complete lack of tactile bass.

Studies have shown there is indeed an anti-correlation between tactile bass and preferred audible bass. These studies have also shown that the weight of the listener is a factor in how much tactile bass they perceive (heavier feeling less bass). So this could also factor in to preferred audible bass - if a heavier listener feels less bass, this may mean they do not need as much of a bass boost to compensate for tactile bass loss when wearing headphones. This is further supported by the finding that women (who are on average lighter) prefer 1dB higher bass boost on average than men, and could even be contributing to older listeners (who are on average heavier) preferring less bass. So it would be useful not only for people to post an audiogram result, but also their weight when discussing their bass preference

I would also posit that those who prefer less bass than the Harman target may not be used to or regularly listen to loud music with high bass content through speakers, such as that at a rock concert or in a nightclub. If they are not used to feeling this tactile bass, they might not miss it as much when using headphones, and so not feel the need to compensate for the lack of it through an audible bass boost.

 

[solderdude]

Because of the HF hearing loss, or something else?

That would be my guess as well and perhaps younger people visit loud concerts more and like the chest thumb.
When I was young I turned up the bass to the max.
Had to 'un-condition' myself by listening to music with bass turned down for a few weeks.
After that 'flat' sounded good.

preference also will have something to do with it. The Harman curve also changed over the years and is the result of average preference. Not everyone is average... Then there is listening level and type of recordings.

 

[Soniclife]

That would be my guess as well and perhaps younger people visit loud concerts more and like the chest thumb.

The same factor does not seem to apply to speakers, we adapt as the HF rolls off, and don't try to compensate for it.
I'm interested in how much real personal variation there is in perception with phones, not preference, I really seem to struggle with headphones and bass, and I'd like to get over it.

 

[Soniclife]

When I was young I turned up the bass to the max.
Had to 'un-condition' myself by listening to music with bass turned down for a few weeks.
After that 'flat' sounded good.

I think that's quite normal, with speakers as well, who hasn't bought a sub and turned it way up for a bit, then backed it off slowly over a few weeks.

 

[MRC01]

... When you apply incorrect EQ, indeed bass will sound bloated and 'muddy', no distortion in the bass either as the boost is just a few dB.
Oratory and Sonarworks bass lift is overdone and that's what's causing the negative comments on EQ'ed bass on the HD650 combined with underpowered amplifiers.
...

It's certainly true that overdoing the bass corrections does ruin the sound. Yet my perception is that even when the HD600 is gently/properly corrected (something like +6 dB @ 20 Hz, linearly sloping to neutral by 50 Hz), the bass from good planars is still cleaner and more extended.

I've owned H600 for 20 years and they had some of the bass bass I have heard. I still think they have some of the best bass you can get in any dynamic/conventional heaphone. Yet good planar bass is in a different league.

 

[solderdude]

When you EQ the LCD-2 and HD600 to the same tonal balance the LCD2 'holds' his own to much higher levels for sure.
When enough voltage is available the HD600 bass is fine, even to loud levels.
I don't think EQ'ed HD600 is to be played loud. One should not use it that way. Fine for normal to decently loud levels where the LCD-2 can be used to ear deafening levels with impressive bass.
I feel this is more a 'listening level' thing than a quality thing.

I heard several LCD-2 and there is more variance between them than there is between say HD600 and HD650.
Some LCD-2 had lovely treble and others were 'coarse' sounding.

 

[MRC01]

I agree that listening level is a factor, yet I listen at low to moderate levels and still find the LCD-2F to be superior to the HD600. I have 2 pair of LCD-2F (both with 2016 drivers) and they do sound slightly different in the treble.
In saying I prefer the LCD-2F I'm not disparaging the HD600 at all, but just giving the OP a reference to compare with, if he wants to hear what "reference quality" headphone bass sounds like then then the LCD-2F is about as close to perfect as one can find.

 

[bobbooo]

I agree that listening level is a factor, yet I listen at low to moderate levels and still find the LCD-2F to be superior to the HD600. I have 2 pair of LCD-2F (both with 2016 drivers) and they do sound slightly different in the treble.
In saying I prefer the LCD-2F I'm not disparaging the HD600 at all, but just giving the OP a reference to compare with, if he wants to hear what "reference quality" headphone bass sounds like then then the LCD-2F is about as close to perfect as one can find.

The LCD is way above the price point of the OP's HD6XX. It also has poor treble response, as seen here. A better buy for the OP at a similar price point as the HD6XX but with adequate bass would be the HiFiMAN HE4XX, which is also planar magnetic and has comparably low distortion to the LCD-2F.

 

[MRC01]

... A better buy for the OP at a similar price point as the HD6XX but with adequate bass would be the HiFiMAN HE4XX, which is also planar magnetic and has comparably low distortion to the LCD-2F.

Sure, another planar. The HE4xx mids & treble are worse than the LCD-2F (more uneven, messier CSD), but I agree it has excellent bass response and is a lot cheaper. And that is my point: the SOTA with headphone bass response is with planars.

 

[raistlin65]

Leaving aside bass-heads, is there research that supports some people not liking the full Harman bass correction? My hypothesis is people vary a lot in how much bass they like from headphones, do we vary in how we process bass, some people being biased towards their ears only, and others really missing the chest, neck, etc vibration sensations.

From Brett Butterworth's article about the Harmon Target response research

Harman curve Lovers: This group, which constitutes 64% of listeners, includes mostly a broad spectrum of people, although they’re generally under age 50. They prefer headphones tuned close to the Harman curve.

“More Bass Is Better”: This next group, which makes up 15% of listeners, prefers headphones with 3 to 6dB more bass than Harman curve below 300Hz, and 1dB more output above 1kHz. This group is predominantly male and younger -- the listeners JBL is targeting with its headphones.

“Less Bass Is Better”: This group, 21% of listeners, prefers 2 to 3dB less bass than the Harman curve and 1dB more output above 1kHz. This group is disproportionately female and older than 50.

https://www.soundstagesolo.com/index.php/features/217-where-are-we-at-with-the-harman-curve

 

[raistlin65]

Because of the HF hearing loss, or something else?

Another explanation is that it may be cultural and learned.

Those of us in the 50 and older crowd might remember what it was like to listen to music in the '60s and '70s. Subwoofers were practically non-existent. Car stereo speakers had mids and treble with practically no bass. Maybe you frequently heard a lot of deep bass if someone you knew had Cerwin Vega speakers or the like.

Consider popular music of the '50s, '60s and '70s and how little of it had deep bass. Hip hop and rap in the '80s made bass more mainstream.

Television during those decades? Nobody had home theater, and built-in TV speakers weren't any better than car audio at producing bass.

 

[bobbooo]

The HE4xx mids & treble are worse than the LCD-2F (more uneven, messier CSD)

The mids maybe slightly, but the HE4XX's treble is actually better, as can be seen from these measurements and its lower calculated average deviation of ~2dB to the LCD-2F's 3dB. Where have you seen a CSD plot for the HE4XX? They're notoriously unreliable measurements that tell us little about audible sound quality anyway.

 

[MRC01]

... where have you seen a CSD plot for the HE4XX? ...

Hosted by @solderdude
https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/

 

[bobbooo]

Hosted by @solderdude
https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/

I don't see any measurements for the HE4XX there.

 

[MRC01]

HE 400i: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/hifiman/he400i/
HE 400s: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/hifiman/he-400s/

 

[bobbooo]

Another explanation is that it may be cultural and learned.

Those of us in the 50 and older crowd might remember what it was like to listen to music in the '60s and '70s. Subwoofers were practically non-existent. Car stereo speakers had mids and treble with practically no bass. Maybe you frequently heard a lot of deep bass if someone you knew had Cerwin Vega speakers or the like.

Consider popular music of the '50s, '60s and '70s and how little of it had deep bass. Hip hop and rap in the '80s made bass more mainstream.

Television during those decades? Nobody had home theater, and built-in TV speakers weren't any better than car audio at producing bass.

This research suggests otherwise, showing that cultural and age differences have little affect on headphone preference:

 

[bobbooo]

HE 400i: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/hifiman/he400i/
HE 400s: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/hifiman/he-400s/

Neither of them are the same as the HE4XX. Compare the professional measurements of the HE4XX I linked to above with the HE400i, the latter showing a larger average deviation and worse bass extension.

 

[solderdude]

Where have you seen a CSD plot for the HE4XX?

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...iman-he4xx-measurements-and-impressions.4815/

 

[raistlin65]

This research suggests otherwise, showing that cultural and age differences have little affect on headphone preference:

Isn't that the 2014 video?

The other comment I posted references a 2019 article that Brett Butterworth wrote based upon a recent Olive presentation in Los Angeles. You'll want to look at that article which clearly shows there is an age difference.