On the lookout for mixing headphones

[RaztoR]

I wish I had read your OP in time- the Brainwavs Large (not XL) fit fine and have that extra depth. Inexpensive too (like, £20)

I only know this as I had a faff with my (larger but similar built) ATH W5000- they needed bending in and deeper pads. They take the Brainwavs XL.

Interesting. I'll definitely keep that in mind for future reference, thank you for the suggestion!

 

[solderdude]

The measured distortion varies across different reviewers, but Sonarworks are not the only ones that claim that the HD650s have >4% harmonic distortion in the low-end. Whether or not that is an issue in practicality is another thing entirely, though.

I measured it the same as Tyll, about 2% at 90dB SPL. ( with a $4.- mic)
Jude measured an even lower distortion at 90dB SPL (source)

Given the nature of the human hearing a 40dB harmonic distance in lower frequencies is not audible and given the fact that speakers like the F208 have even higher distortion numbers does say something about the audibility of it.
Sure some planars have much lower numbers but this is the same discussion as a DAC having a -100 or -120 dB distortion numbers.
It is inconsequential and not audible, at least with normal usage. I hear no distortion in the HD650 and above 100Hz where distortion is becoming audible as distortion the HD650 is surprisingly well behaved and low distortion.
Yes, there are lower distortion headphones but saying the HD650 has high distortion is far from reality.

 

[solderdude]

Wouldn't really consider ZMF headphones to be mixing/neutral monsters. Auteur is the most neutral tuned, but you'd need individual sonarworks calibration to get a true reference honestly. Pretty pricy at that, in total. I think sonarworks individual calibration in itself is really nice though, good experience with them.

Not to mention all ZMF have quite high distortion numbers where it really counts (around 1.5kHz). (source)

and the Eikon (measured by Tyll) appeares to be the same driver ?

The HD600 is a much better choice for mixing, the ZMF's may be a better choice for relaxing with warm blanket music.

 

[Rja4000]

https://fr.m.audiofanzine.com/casqu...sques-de-studio-ouverts-entre-200-et-400.html

 

[Jimbob54]

Update: After a few days of trying out the HD650, it became obvious that it had to be returned as well due to severe head pain caused by the headband padding. Unless I do not find a better replacement in the next few weeks, I will not be looking into modifying the HD650s for better comfort. My search for a suitable headphone continues. Any constructive feedback would be much appreciated.

My main candidates, used in tandem with Sonarworks:
1. Focal Clear Professional (The Pro version due to the extra ear pads included compared to the non-Pro version - also cheaper around here)
2. Audeze LCD-X
3. Beyerdynamics DT1990 / DT1770
4. Ollo HPS S4X (?) - More input appreciated
5. ZMF Eikon (?) - More input appreciated
6. ZMF Auteur (?) - More input appreciated
7. Focal Elegia (?) - More input appreciated
8. Dan Clark Audio AEON 2 Closed
9. Neumann NDH 20

Not on the list but the Drop /Dan Clark Ether CX might do the job. Price goes down to $750 around seasonal events - offsets taxes etc if exporting to Europe/ UK etc . They are - possibly just what you are looking for - although the cable (scratchy) might frustrate- assume same as the Aeon 2

 

[RaztoR]

Not to mention all ZMF have quite high distortion numbers where it really counts (around 1.5kHz). (source)

I measured it the same as Tyll, about 2% at 90dB SPL. ( with a $4.- mic)
Jude measured an even lower distortion at 90dB SPL (source)View attachment 75592

Given the nature of the human hearing a 40dB harmonic distance in lower frequencies is not audible and given the fact that speakers like the F208 have even higher distortion numbers does say something about the audibility of it.
Sure some planars have much lower numbers but this is the same discussion as a DAC having a -100 or -120 dB distortion numbers.
It is inconsequential and not audible, at least with normal usage. I hear no distortion in the HD650 and above 100Hz where distortion is becoming audible as distortion the HD650 is surprisingly well behaved and low distortion.
Yes, there are lower distortion headphones but saying the HD650 has high distortion is far from reality.

That distortion graph seem quite alarming, it reminds me of what I've seen in the more expensive Shure SRH product lines (1840, for example). I will look into this further.

Those are all points that I see merit in, I agree; It is pretty much what the response from Sonarworks engineering department was as well regarding the distortion, even with EQ applied in the low-end. Besides, I didn't notice an issue with the distortion while trying them out with Sonarworks, so there's that. However, if you re-read my post, I never claimed that the distortion on the HD650's were high, I never used an adverb to describe its characteristic. I said that it was a potential concern of mine while remaining fully aware that it was likely a non-issue. Like you said, while the distortion may be relatively high when compared to some headphones - there comes a point where the differences are likely to be, practically speaking, negligible outside of looking fancy on paper, confirmation bias, placebo, etc.

That aside, I appreciate that you took the time sharing those measurements and explanations. I believe I've looked into reviews among other things that you've written in the past on your own website (?). There's much that can be said regarding the widespread misinformation regarding headphones, cables and audio in general. But it seems like you've spent a lot of time trying to combat said misinformation which, if true, is something that I admire. But I digress, thank you for the feedback.

If there's anything else that you would like to add to the discussion unrelated to the HD650's, I am all ears.

Not on the list but the Drop /Dan Clark Ether CX might do the job. Price goes down to $750 around seasonal events - offsets taxes etc if exporting to Europe/ UK etc . They are - possibly just what you are looking for - although the cable (scratchy) might frustrate- assume same as the Aeon 2

Noted. You don't happen to know some good sources regarding those headphones that I can take a look at, or any of the other Ether cans from Dan's company? I am more than happy to read other suggestions outside of the list I've written. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[Kouioui]

The HD600 is a much better choice for mixing, the ZMF's may be a better choice for relaxing with warm blanket music.

HD600s have a different design of headband padding than the 650s and may work better for the OPs fit issue. I personally find the 650/6XX headband design more comfortable than the 600 as I'm bald and the notch cutout in the padding doesn't touch the bony ridge at the top of my skull. The 600/650 measure remarkably similar after EQ according to oratory1990's graphs.

 

[RaztoR]

HD600s have a different design of headband padding than the 650s and may work better for the OPs fit issue. I personally find the 650/6XX headband design more comfortable than the 600 as I'm bald and the notch cutout in the padding doesn't touch the bony ridge at the top of my skull. The 600/650 measure remarkably similar after EQ according to oratory1990's graphs.

So I have seen. I was looking at headband pads for the HD650's earlier and found the HD600 pads as a potential alternative for them. However, this is something that I will only investigate if I don't find a suitable candidate within the next few weeks. Thank you for the input.

 

[Jimbob54]

That distortion graph seem quite alarming, it reminds me of what I've seen in the more expensive Shure SRH product lines (1840, for example). I will look into this further.

Those are all points that I see merit in, I agree; It is pretty much what the response from Sonarworks engineering department was as well regarding the distortion, even with EQ applied in the low-end. Besides, I didn't notice an issue with the distortion while trying them out with Sonarworks, so there's that. However, if you re-read my post, I never claimed that the distortion on the HD650's were high, I never used an adverb to describe its characteristic. I said that it was a potential concern of mine while remaining fully aware that it was likely a non-issue. Like you said, while the distortion may be relatively high when compared to some headphones - there comes a point where the differences are likely to be, practically speaking, negligible outside of looking fancy on paper, confirmation bias, placebo, etc.

That aside, I appreciate that you took the time sharing those measurements and explanations. I believe I've looked into reviews among other things that you've written in the past on your own website (?). There's much that can be said regarding the widespread misinformation regarding headphones, cables and audio in general. But it seems like you've spent a lot of time trying to combat said misinformation which, if true, is something that I admire. But I digress, thank you for the feedback.

If there's anything else that you would like to add to the discussion unrelated to the HD650's, I am all ears.


O
Noted. You don't happen to know some good sources regarding those headphones that I can take a look at, or any of the other Ether cans from Dan's company? I am more than happy to read other suggestions outside of the list I've written. Thank you for the suggestion.

For technical try https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/mrspeakers/ether-c-flow/ (the massdrop version are slightly different, but hey, way cheaper). For subjective I quite like Joshua valour on YouTube. I think he's done the ether CX and others.

 

[LightninBoy]

4 suggestions ...

1. Don't mix with headphones.
2. If you must mix with headphones, might as well get some that are flat to 20hz as that's one thing headphones do better than in-room speakers. I keep my headphones handy just to validate bass levels.
3. If you must mix with headphones, try out the Wave NX plugin. I'd be interested in the results you get (I've messed around with it, but never tried any real mixes.
4. Don't mix with headphones.

 

[RaztoR]

For technical try https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/mrspeakers/ether-c-flow/ (the massdrop version are slightly different, but hey, way cheaper). For subjective I quite like Joshua valour on YouTube. I think he's done the ether CX and others.

I will check out the technical review later. It seems like I missed that one while I was examining the site earlier. Do you know what those particular differences are with the Drop version? Factory assembly differences? To my knowledge, the HD6XX were from the same factory as the HD650, but that is not the case for every drop product. Thank you for the input.

4 suggestions ...

1. Don't mix with headphones.
2. If you must mix with headphones, might as well get some that are flat to 20hz as that's one thing headphones do better than in-room speakers. I keep my headphones handy just to validate bass levels.
3. If you must mix with headphones, try out the Wave NX plugin. I'd be interested in the results you get (I've messed around with it, but never tried any real mixes.
4. Don't mix with headphones.

[...] However, before anyone suggests it: Monitors are not relevant under my current circumstances.

While I can see where you are coming from, it is not relevant for me to use anything other than headphones and possibly a subpac for this year, and likely the next due to the circumstances that I find myself in currently. Also, while it may or may not be what you are actually intending to convey in-between the lines, I do not agree with the idea that mixing with headphones are that big of an issue if you understand the characteristics of your cans well enough. One of my former colleagues who nowadays spend most of his time developing for a certain, highly successful game studio has been fully capable of mixing with headphones start-to-finish that translates well to other systems; including their studio with audio equipment and acoustic treatment that costs more than what many people will earn in their lifetimes. Andrew Scheps allegedly mixed an entire album using a pair of Sony MDR 7506. I myself used to mix tracks using a pair of ATH-M50s for years, and I know that I am far from being alone in that regard. Mixing on headphones is not for everyone, but it can certainly be done well. However, I do agree that it would be more ideal to have multiple sources to check your mixes with rather than fully rely on just one source if you can help it - regardless of what that source might be.

See also this.

In any case, I've looked into various room simulators including the Waves NX, Goodhertz CanOpener, Redline Monitor and many others. Tried Redline Monitor many years ago and found it quite interesting to work with. I am going to use CanOpener in my current project as an experiment and see how that goes. Thank you for the feedback.

 

[FabianB]

Hello RaztoR and everyone else here!

this is my first post, I'm a long time lurker but for this thread I really had to register to get involved in the discussion.
Hopefully my experience can help you at least a little bit.

My background is as a long time audio engineer, I've been working with broadcast almost exlusively for the past 6 or 7 years. Right now in radio broadcast, so a lot of live-to-air stuff.
As troublesome at it can be mixing in headphones are a necessity, so I see were you're coming from RaztoR. Sometimes it just can't be done any other way, whether it is recording TV in loud enviorments, or mixing a show for broadcast at the side of a stage with blasting PA. Headphones is the only option then, and preferably some that isolate well in that situation. For good mixing cans with high isolation I can recommend the Remote Audio ones with Sony MD-7506 drivers:
https://remoteaudio.com/products/hearing/high-noise-headset/

As for mixing long time in headphone I have to agree with LightninBoy, it will get painful... And with closed cans, you will get fatigued from listening in another way than from open backed cans.
I have both Sennheiser HD-650 and MrSpeaker Æon closed (1:st gen) at home, and have been using the Neumann NDH-20 at work. I used to own a MiniDSP HA-DSP which I bought as soon as it launched, but I've now soled it. Quick summary of what I think of the headphones mentioned:
HD-650 - Easily the most comfortable, can be enjoyed the better part of a day since they are open back. Not the most pronounced bass, or any detail really, but the light weight really helps for the long hours.
Æon closed - same with the weight, really helps. Quite tricky to get a good fit, and I've had to return them on warranty for some fault with one of the drivers (it sounded different and lost sensitivity). Very good people to deal with, but the shipping from Sweden-US and back took a while. Extremly comfortable as well but the closed back nature of it gets fatiguing after a few hours. Also, which I wasn't aware of when I bought them is how difficult they are to drive thanks to their low impedance (13ohm nominal). Works very well with JDS Labs Atom or the like, a Babyface Pro FS would be a stellar match.
NDH-20 - Quite heavy cans! I can't wear them for more than an hour in one go, but thankfully a quick break resets the comfort for me. Very good sound, works with ANY amplifier, neutral sound for me, and the distorsion is extremely low. Makes balancing and EQ:ing of sources very easy. The cable that comes with the phones are downright horrible for all the noise that is transported through them to the cans. The cables are also extremly stiff. I had to make a special one to be able to work with them at all, I'm keeping that cable in close possession..

About crossfeed and externalisation plugins: I haven't tried GoodHertz CanOpener but I would like to! Please let me know how they work.
I did experiment a lot with headphone equalization and crossfeed filters when I had the HA-DSP amplifier, but since it wasn't up to the job of driving the Æon I eventually sold it. I have been trying out Airwindows Monitor-plugin with his externalization algorithms, so far they work very well and doesn't change the sound of the headphones very much. Should be a good match if you equalize the sound of your headphones.

Regards,
Fabian

 

[LightninBoy]

Also, while it may or may not be what you are actually intending to convey in-between the lines, I do not agree with the idea that mixing with headphones are that big of an issue if you understand the characteristics of your cans well enough.

Agree, but that is easier said than done. Seems like you are going into this with eyes (ears?) wide open, however, and you have your reasons so I won't belabor the point.

 

[solderdude]

So I have seen. I was looking at headband pads for the HD650's earlier and found the HD600 pads as a potential alternative for them. However, this is something that I will only investigate if I don't find a suitable candidate within the next few weeks. Thank you for the input.

Is it the headband or clamping force ? The latter can easily be solved. The first problem may be solved by this ?
For mixing I would go for HD600 over HD650 and not correct bass extension (or just a little)

alterative (even higher clamping force) = DT250/250, this is less suited for hifi enjoyment and needs a fix against leakage in the left cup.
DT1990 with A pads + treble fix is also a fairly good option, or DT880 (also needs treble fix). Without treble fixes the mixed result will lack 'sparkle' and finer nuances.

 

[dasdoing]

mastering engeniers seam to love the Audeze lcd-4.
personaly I wouldn't consider the Sennheiser stuff. they are in generaly very mid focused and have that bass rolloff below 100Hz

I never found out what a neutral FR for phones looks like. Harman sure isn't it

these seam to fit the Rtings curve the most https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/beyerdynamic/dt-770-pro

 

[A Surfer]

The Neuman's are regarded as rather close to neutral with enough of a nod to consumer sensibilities so as not to sound sterile. My friend owns them and he is extremely experienced with headphones as I am to a slightly lesser extent. I have or do own: DT770/880, HD800S/700/650/600, MDR Z7, Z1R, LCD 2F, HE Edition X V2/560/400i, Klipsch HP3, Oppo PM3, Pioneer SE Monito 5 and many portable Bluetooth models. I have no doubt that you could mix very well with headphones and simply verify the work with speakers and then finalize the mix based on the goals. I actually could see the Pioneer SE Monitor 5 as working quite well, but it is not easy to find frequency measurements for it to be certain. I hear it as well balanced, but likely a dip in the mids somewhere, but not a pronounced dip.

 

[dasdoing]

well, good luck. it's crazy how headphone meassurements differ.

meassurements are from oratory1990 (alined to 3000Hz)

(the red curve is a curve Harman study produced as a starting point for their curve. they had speakers meassuring flat in room, and this curve is what a headphone would meassure when sounding the same https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-measurements-explained-frequency-response-part-one)

 

[RaztoR]

Hello RaztoR and everyone else here!



this is my first post, I'm a long time lurker but for this thread I really had to register to get involved in the discussion.

Hopefully my experience can help you at least a little bit.



My background is as a long time audio engineer, I've been working with broadcast almost exlusively for the past 6 or 7 years. Right now in radio broadcast, so a lot of live-to-air stuff.

As troublesome at it can be mixing in headphones are a necessity, so I see were you're coming from RaztoR. Sometimes it just can't be done any other way, whether it is recording TV in loud enviorments, or mixing a show for broadcast at the side of a stage with blasting PA. Headphones is the only option then, and preferably some that isolate well in that situation. For good mixing cans with high isolation I can recommend the Remote Audio ones with Sony MD-7506 drivers:

https://remoteaudio.com/products/hearing/high-noise-headset/

That's sweet of you for taking the time to respond to this discussion, Fabian. The Remote Audio headphones have not been on my radar at all, they seem quite interesting for the reasons you explained above. While I do not have a need for that much sound isolation at the moment, I can definitely see how they could be useful to me further down the lines. Where did you buy them? I found a store in the UK selling them (currently out of stock) while looking them up. Thank you for the suggestion!

As for mixing long time in headphone I have to agree with LightninBoy, it will get painful... And with closed cans, you will get fatigued from listening in another way than from open backed cans.

You're right. I do know how fatiguing it can get when mixing or listening with closed cans for extended periods. Although I didn't have the same problem with some open cans unless I was listening for extended periods without any breaks. Your mileage may wary in that regard. However, the physical pain that I've been experiencing while trying out different cans the past week or so started within five to twenty minutes of usage, which is far from acceptable in my view.

I have both Sennheiser HD-650 and MrSpeaker Æon closed (1:st gen) at home, and have been using the Neumann NDH-20 at work. I used to own a MiniDSP HA-DSP which I bought as soon as it launched, but I've now soled it. Quick summary of what I think of the headphones mentioned:

HD-650 - Easily the most comfortable, can be enjoyed the better part of a day since they are open back. Not the most pronounced bass, or any detail really, but the light weight really helps for the long hours.

Æon closed - same with the weight, really helps. Quite tricky to get a good fit, and I've had to return them on warranty for some fault with one of the drivers (it sounded different and lost sensitivity). Very good people to deal with, but the shipping from Sweden-US and back took a while. Extremly comfortable as well but the closed back nature of it gets fatiguing after a few hours. Also, which I wasn't aware of when I bought them is how difficult they are to drive thanks to their low impedance (13ohm nominal). Works very well with JDS Labs Atom or the like, a Babyface Pro FS would be a stellar match.

NDH-20 - Quite heavy cans! I can't wear them for more than an hour in one go, but thankfully a quick break resets the comfort for me. Very good sound, works with ANY amplifier, neutral sound for me, and the distorsion is extremely low. Makes balancing and EQ:ing of sources very easy. The cable that comes with the phones are downright horrible for all the noise that is transported through them to the cans. The cables are also extremly stiff. I had to make a special one to be able to work with them at all, I'm keeping that cable in close possession..

Interesting, have you had any prior experience with the second generation of the AEON closed cans and know how they might compare? I have the older Baby Face Pro, not the FS version that uses the same op-amps as the ADI-2 Pro. The output impedance for the 3.5mm TRS jack on the older Babyface Pro is 2 Ohm. It should be fine for either of the AEON gens for my listening levels. I am curious about the performance differences between the first and second generation. About the NDH-20, I've read from various individuals that the headphones can feel rather stiff and uncomfortable at the beginning before the became more comfortable. Did you experience something similar over time, even if they remain problematic after an hour? As usual, comfort will vary since we all have different shapes and sizes for our heads and ears, but I remain curious none the less.

About crossfeed and externalisation plugins: I haven't tried GoodHertz CanOpener but I would like to! Please let me know how they work.

I did experiment a lot with headphone equalization and crossfeed filters when I had the HA-DSP amplifier, but since it wasn't up to the job of driving the Æon I eventually sold it. I have been trying out Airwindows Monitor-plugin with his externalization algorithms, so far they work very well and doesn't change the sound of the headphones very much. Should be a good match if you equalize the sound of your headphones.

I'll let you know how the project was influenced by the CanOpener once it is all done. In this particular project, I am not mixing while arranging or designing the sounds, the mixing phase will be done later. In case you didn't know, you can download a trial version of CanOpener directly from GoodHertz. I recently downloaded the Airwindows Monitor-plugin it along with many of his other plugins directly from his website, but I have yet to play around with it. Thank you for taking the time to register and respond to this thread. Much obliged!

Agree, but that is easier said than done. Seems like you are going into this with eyes (ears?) wide open, however, and you have your reasons so I won't belabor the point.

Quite right. There will be challenges and obstacles to overcome no matter what. For example, it is often not economically feasible for a young beginner to invest in a monitor setup with acoustic treatment, presuming they are even allowed to treat the room in the first place. In such cases, it is more than understandable why some individuals find themselves sticking to headphones which can eventually make them learn how to work with them after many hours of listening to different tracks and projects. There's much that can be said about this topic, once could write half a novel and it wouldn't be enough to cover all the relevant nuances and scenarios that might come into play.

Is it the headband or clamping force ? The latter can easily be solved. The first problem may be solved by this ?
For mixing I would go for HD600 over HD650 and not correct bass extension (or just a little)

I believe my issue is that of high headband pressure on the top of my head, that the weight is not as distributed over a large enough surface area compared to the K712. The HD650's narrower soft foam pad design causes a lot more pain than the K712's wider self-adjusting headband within five to twenty minutes.

alterative (even higher clamping force) = DT250/250, this is less suited for hifi enjoyment and needs a fix against leakage in the left cup.
DT1990 with A pads + treble fix is also a fairly good option, or DT880 (also needs treble fix). Without treble fixes the mixed result will lack 'sparkle' and finer nuances.

What you wrote about the DT1990 with the A pads and treble correction is what I've been considering as one of my main candiates. If it can be done, I would much prefer to stick to one pair of headphones for work and as a daily driver for enjoyment.

mastering engeniers seam to love the Audeze lcd-4.
personaly I wouldn't consider the Sennheiser stuff. they are in generaly very mid focused and have that bass rolloff below 100Hz

I never found out what a neutral FR for phones looks like. Harman sure isn't it

these seam to fit the Rtings curve the most https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/beyerdynamic/dt-770-pro

I am afraid the LCD-4 is way out of the price range I am willing to spend on headphones for the time being. At that price range, I would have been very interested to try out the Ribbon Earfield monitors RAAL-requisite SR1a. I've been looking at the DT770, DT880 and DT990 earlier. For my needs, I think it would be more relevant to look at the DT1990s or the DT1770s due to the fact that they can have their cables easily swapped unlike the first three models. I appreciate the input none the less.

The Neuman's are regarded as rather close to neutral with enough of a nod to consumer sensibilities so as not to sound sterile. My friend owns them and he is extremely experienced with headphones as I am to a slightly lesser extent. I have or do own: DT770/880, HD800S/700/650/600, MDR Z7, Z1R, LCD 2F, HE Edition X V2/560/400i, Klipsch HP3, Oppo PM3, Pioneer SE Monito 5 and many portable Bluetooth models. I have no doubt that you could mix very well with headphones and simply verify the work with speakers and then finalize the mix based on the goals. I actually could see the Pioneer SE Monitor 5 as working quite well, but it is not easy to find frequency measurements for it to be certain. I hear it as well balanced, but likely a dip in the mids somewhere, but not a pronounced dip.

That's quite the collection you got there. I did a quick search to see if I could find anything reliable regarding the Pioneer SE Monitor 5, it seems they use the same driver as their SE-Master1 which has a curious looking frequency response according to Pioneer themselves. More data to examine would be great. Thank you for the feedback.

 

[Kouioui]

Nobody's mentioned them but for a closed-back the AKG K371s are fairly comfortable, plenty of sub-bass, and are within 1dB of the Harman curve straight out of the box. I do EQ them with oratory's settings but they benefit less than my 6XXs using it. Having some isolation helps if you're mixing in noisy environments or don't wish to disturb others as open-backs often do.

The 6 series Sennheisers with EQ sound very close to my studio monitors and I use them for making sure I have the mids and treble right. 371s can let you know if there are any rumble issues before you send a mix for mastering and have a better bass response overall. It's always good to check your mix on as many playback setups as you can find, including speakers, but mixing on headphones isn't impossible.

 

[RaztoR]

Thank you everyone for the input. After returning the HD650 earlier, I decided to give the DT 1990 a try which I will calibrate using Sonarworks. The headphone should arrive at some point next week, I'll report back with my impression afterwards.