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Salk WoW1 Bookshelf Speaker Review

EchoChamber

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blueone

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I think the manufacturers who take this data, engage, and improve are the ones to be cherished. So far its been Schiit, Denon, Newman? (the freezer test lol), Topping, and a few others. Salk (and I bet Selah) are in this group as well as others. The ones who ignore it or just get defensive will never be purchased by me again. This analysis and subsequent discourse is amazing on ASR.

Actually, I find the reviews on ASR to be really excellent, and the feedback on the review methodology to often be very good, but I find much of the discourse (especially in this thread as an example) to be obnoxious.
 
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jsalk

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Understand what your customer needs are and focus on it. I for one want ultimate transparency in speakers but something I'd be happy to look at every day in my living room

EchoChamber -

Thanks for your thoughts as you obviously took some time to formulate them. I appreciate your perspective. Obviously a company could adopt that business model and be successful. But our business model is a bit different. Let me explain...

Do we have too many models? Yes. Is it sometimes confusing for a potential customer to sort them out. Yes. But we view this as a strength. Why would I say that?

Most potential customers trying to sort this out will either call or email and start a conversation. This is very valuable for us as it provides an opportunity to ascertain important information about what that individual customer wants and/or needs.

How large is their room? What would they be driving the speakers with? What type of music do they listen to? How important is deep bass? The list goes on... This gives us an opportunity to point them toward speakers that best fit their needs and taste. In the process, we get to know each customer on a personal basis - something no large speaker manufacturer has the opportunity to do.

To illustrate, let's look at our various Song3 models of which there are five (only four shown on our web site). I don't know enough to make a recommendation at this point, but based on your comments about ultimate transparency, I would point you toward the Song3-A's. But if a potential customer tells me he or she listens mostly to classic rock, this is probably the last speaker I would recommend. It is extremely detailed in the midrange and would expose every flaw in the recording or mastering process. Many of these recordings were mastered for play in an automobile and have a boosted high end. An extremely detailed speaker will make some of these recordings relatively unlistenable.

The basic Song3 is a great starting place for someone on a more limited budget. The drivers are good but not terribly expensive. The Song3-BeAT's feature a custom AudioTechnology (founded by the same family that founded ScanSpeak and Dynadio) midrange that is not quite as detailed as the Accuton in the Song3-A's, but is very smooth and musical. And if you'd like deeper bass than these speakers produce, the Song3 Encores dig quite a bit deeper.

I would be happy to eliminate products from our offerings if for no other reason than to make our lives simpler. But what you see on our web site is the culmination of listening very carefully to our customers. The way we look at it, we are building their speakers - not ours. So they should be able to get what they want. We often get customers who want to upgrade everything in a design, often doubling the cost. That is no problem for us.

In the end, I am not aware of a single speaker design that will please everyone and doubt there is one. Having a range of models and understanding an individual customers wants and desires, we can be confident that what we recommend will work out well in a particular case.

A number of posters commented on the quality of our cabinets. I'll take this as a compliment since I had never touched a power saw or any other wood-working tool prior to building speakers. Over the years, we have built thousands of cabinets and made every mistake in the book. A great woodworker I know once told me to forget about building the perfect cabinet. "It will never happen," he said. "The difference between a pro woodworker and an amateur is that the pro knows how to cover his mistakes." I always tell my guys the day that we build perfect cabinets is the day we will close our doors as no further improvement is possible.

So when I hear positive comments about our cabinetry, I kind of have to laugh. But the takeaway is that I guess we're doing OK in that department.

We have never turned down a request for a given finish. I am reminded of a customer who wanted a pair of speakers in brushed aluminum to match his refrigerator. Of course, we said yes. But I never took picture of them because I never wanted to undertake something like that again.

The bottom line is that what you see on our site in terms of models, finishes, etc. is the result of what our customers have wanted. We continue to get orders for every model currently on our web site. If that were not the case, I would certainly archive them.

When we design a speaker, we select drivers from the best the world has to offer for a given application. Dennis Murphy does a stellar job in terms of crossover design. And our customers can request any upgrades they desire (we don't "sell" upgrades but are willing to upgrade by request). The same with finishes. No large company can offer that type of flexibility...especially if they sell at retail. And our prices about half of any comparable product sold at retail. We think this business model puts us a in a unique position in the industry. I have watched many speaker companies go out of business since we began ours. But we're still here. So our business model seems to be working for us.

I'd be interested in buying one pair.

We'd be happy to build you a pair and if for any reason you are not happy with the results, we'll take care of you as well.

- Jim
 

Duke

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After we designed that first pair of WOW1’s, we continued to get requests for speakers... mounted on the wall…applications where rear porting was not feasible...

We also had many requests for a small speaker that could be mounted on a wall for home theater surround duty, crossed to a sub at 80Hz.

Another common request is a small speaker to be used at relatively low volume levels for a computer monitor, again placed against a wall.

While none of these situations are necessarily ideal, the WOW1 design is the only design we currently have available that can meet those requirements. [emphasis Duke's]

So, correct me if I'm wrong Jim, but it LOOKS to me like the WOW1's are DESIGNED with the EXPECTATION of significant low-end boundary reinforcement from being placed right smack up against the wall. So THAT is how they should be evaluated - with several decibels of low-end boost from the wall.

I always take the room into account as much as possible when doing a speaker design, so I AGREE with your design decision. Unfortunately when such a speaker is evaluated using a "standard" yardstick, it looks seriously flawed. I'm afraid that's what happened to your design here.

IF the WOW1 had measured and sounded "balanced" when NOT up against the wall, THEN it would have been a FLAWED design for its intended against-the-wall placement.

I'm not saying the little WOW1 is perfect nor do I think you are saying that, but imo the measurements confirm that it is WELL DESIGNED (within budget constraints) for its INTENDED APPLICATION.

And for those who object to the amount of production cost devoted to the cabinetry, consider this: For many audiphiles, it is FAR more cost-effective to pay a premium for cabinetry that the wife WANTS in HER living room, rather than start a war/do without/create a mancave.

Jim has a perpetual backlog of orders, and it is not because his production team is slow. His sales are mostly from word-of-mouth, and that is something you earn the old-fashioned way.

And Jim, when my turn on the hot-seat comes, I hope I can be half the gentleman that you are.

Duke LeJeune
AudioKinesis
 
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EchoChamber

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Neat... I guess. Totally ignoring you're irrational criticism. But you do you.
I'm reading a lot of irrational arguments so I felt like having a little fun too... ;-)

What I'm trying to say is that, the technology has greatly evolved in the past years and small custom made speaker manufacturers will have a hard time keeping up with it, especially if they are not seriously investing in R&D. We're talking fully integrated systems with native room correction. In a few years I don't see myself having anything more than a pair of speakers that combine everything from DAC to drivers like what Kii, Genelec, D&D are producing now. Separate components and custom made speakers will have a place in the audio market the same way people choose to buy a convertible roadster. For fun, like an exotic product, but unlikely a serious performer because the concept itself has been surpassed.
 
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Worth Davis

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Actually, I find the reviews on ASR to be really excellent, and the feedback on the review methodology to often be very good, but I find much of the discourse (especially in this thread as an example) to be obnoxious.

Everyone has their opinion, the discourse about Schiit products clearly had positive results and would not have happened without the discourse and visibibility that review and analysis caused. I maybe would have bought their older products, but their newer line which were directly impacted by ASR are a manufacturer and product I am more likely to buy. I would never buy an active genelec speaker for Stereo and HT as they are ugly AF and I dont want to add a dozen plugs around my 2 rooms to deal with active speakers. Still an amazing product and manufacturer clearly!
 

dep14

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I'm reading a lot of irrational arguments so I felt like having a little fun too... ;-)

What I'm trying to say is that, the technology have evolved a lot in the past years and small custom made speaker manufacturers will have a hard time keeping up with it, especially if they are not seriously investing in R&D. We're talking fully integrated systems with native room correction. In a few years I don't see myself having anything more than a pair of speakers that combine everything from DAC to drivers like what Kii, Genelec, D&D are producing now. Separate components and custom made speakers will have a place in the audio market the same way people choose to buy a convertible roadster. For fun, like an exotic product, but unlikely a serious performer because the concept itself has been surpassed.


So what I'm hearing you say... Audio is my hobby, and in your case you would like to have the latest and greatest. That is what is most important to you. If it measures well, you dig that. I suspect you hope it sounds good to you also.

There is a pretty large group of Salk owners that I am sure would be happy to have you over for a listen. If you like what you hear, great. If not, no big deal.

But there is a lot more to good sound than just pure measurements.

I've owned a lot of speakers. I had some DynAudio Contour 60's, which I am sure measured great. Just never loved them. I liked a pair of OHM's better and if you have seen what is inside a pair of OHM's, I could only imagine your comments.

But I now have some Salk SS12's, my second pair of Salks. LOVE them.

I use an OPPO Sonica Dac, which measures well I see here. But even if it didn't I wouldn't run out and buy a new DAC. I really like how my system sounds, and that is what matters. I've had both Pass Labs and Levinson in my system at the same time. Chances are the Levinson measures better as Pass engineers a bit of 2nd order distortion into their amps as I understand it. I happen to like the Pass better.

I know people subscribe to Toole theory's and studies and that their choice. But then I read a lot of studies and/or articles that show people love 2nd order distortion in their systems... which I think (though I'm not sure) would contradict the measurements camp.

I suspect like most things in life there is a middle ground where most of us are happiest.

While I peruse ASR from time to time, it does seem there is a bit of a culture here of joy when an highly thought of MFG doesn't measure well. It's pretty odd to me, yet reflective of a lot of society these days it seems.
 

MZKM

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We have never turned down a request for a given finish. I am reminded of a customer who wanted a pair of speakers in brushed aluminum to match his refrigerator. Of course, we said yes. But I never took picture of them because I never wanted to undertake something like that again.
Jesus, reminds me of a Reddit post of a DIY Wilson knockoff (troelsgravesen?) and the entire speaker was covered in copper panels (sadly the image was deleted).
 

muad

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Funny you should mention that, I have a set of BeATs on order and Amir has agreed to test them when they arrive. I put the order in about 6 weeks ago so I'm hoping to see them by September. I'll keep everyone posted!
Thanks for doing this! It's a pretty well regarded model and it will be nice to see another Salk get measured as a comparison.

I was eyeing the BeAts as well. I have a bit of an academic interest in how the low mounted woofer will blend with the mid on the klippel. I have a similar low mounted dual woofer on selah designed floorstanders I built...
 

Adam Bernau

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I also think that times change, and perhaps the Salk company is just not very inovative, also the level of measurement that ASR now provides is very challenging for the old myths and beliefs, which is a good thing.
Considering the measured poor performance, the inevitably impossible task of a 4,5 inch driver with 3 mm linear excursion trying to play bellow 80 Hz, and the fact, that the Salk company is advertising those, using bold statements like / quote "SURPRISING BASS EXTENTION -With bass extension to 48Hz, this little monitor will surprise you with its bass output"./endquote the price seems like typo to me, and the advertising seems to be just lying, no offence, don´t shoot the messenger :)
Btw i have just stumbled upon this ASR review, and i have a great idea- let´s groupbuy these, and make proper blind A/B testing. Honestly it doesn´t seem to be a much worse, measurement wise :)
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumi-bs5-bookshelf-speaker-review.14404/
 

EchoChamber

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So what I'm hearing you say... Audio is my hobby, and in your case you would like to have the latest and greatest. That is what is most important to you. If it measures well, you dig that. I suspect you hope it sounds good to you also.

There is a pretty large group of Salk owners that I am sure would be happy to have you over for a listen. If you like what you hear, great. If not, no big deal.

But there is a lot more to good sound than just pure measurements.

I've owned a lot of speakers. I had some DynAudio Contour 60's, which I am sure measured great. Just never loved them. I liked a pair of OHM's better and if you have seen what is inside a pair of OHM's, I could only imagine your comments.

But I now have some Salk SS12's, my second pair of Salks. LOVE them.

I use an OPPO Sonica Dac, which measures well I see here. But even if it didn't I wouldn't run out and buy a new DAC. I really like how my system sounds, and that is what matters. I've had both Pass Labs and Levinson in my system at the same time. Chances are the Levinson measures better as Pass engineers a bit of 2nd order distortion into their amps as I understand it. I happen to like the Pass better.

I know people subscribe to Toole theory's and studies and that their choice. But then I read a lot of studies and/or articles that show people love 2nd order distortion in their systems... which I think (though I'm not sure) would contradict the measurements camp.

I suspect like most things in life there is a middle ground where most of us are happiest.

While I peruse ASR from time to time, it does seem there is a bit of a culture here of joy when an highly thought of MFG doesn't measure well. It's pretty odd to me, yet reflective of a lot of society these days it seems.
All good, I’m not judging what Salk customers do with their money. That’s your business, not mine. But let’s verify the claims of accuracy and transparency before promoting them subjectively. Which is what ASR does best.

I also agree, Genelec are not the prettiest, although I find them much better in white. But their cabinets are optimized for sound, and that, to me is impressive - form follows function. I find it an engineering master piece.

If I had 8 or 10 K to burn right now, I’d be looking at a stereo pair of 8351b or 8361a.
 

jsalk

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What I'm trying to say is that, the technology have evolved a lot in the past years and small custom made speaker manufacturers will have a hard time keeping up with it, especially if they are not seriously investing in R&D. We're talking fully integrated systems with native room correction. In a few years I don't see myself having anything more than a pair of speakers that combine everything from DAC to drivers like what Kii, Genelec, D&D are producing now.

There is a great deal of merit to this point of view. But we're not there yet.

A number of years ago I got tired of playing CD's at audio shows. So I developed a streaming system to use instead. Since we are primarily a speaker builder, I had no intention of developing this into a product line. After a few years, I changed my attitude because it seemed to me that this was the direction things had to go. So we developed a commercial product called the StreamPlayer.

At the time, I thought I was on the front end of what would be a huge wave. But the fact was, I was too far in front of that wave.

Fast forward a few years and as people saw us use the StreamPlayer at audio shows, we started getting orders. When one of our associates saw how many StreamPlayers we were selling, he suggested we stop building speakers and concentrate on music servers. I disagreed.

I told him that we were involved in a guerrilla market as far was these products were concerned. We would sell what we would sell, but eventually the market potential would grow to a point where large Asian concerns would start producing servers at prices we could never hope to match in smaller volumes.

We still build and ship StreamPlayers today. We aren't at that point yet and we do have one advantage that will help extend the window of opportunity for us. We are able to provide better service should a customer need it. I can log onto their system, locate the issue at hand and fix it, usually in short order. It doesn't matter what day of the week it is, I can fix it as easily on a Sunday as any other day. It would be very difficult for a large audio manufacturer to offer that type of support, especially if they are selling large volumes at retail.

But I would expect that within the next couple of years, sales will eventually fall to zero and the StreamPlayer line will be history.

The same thing applies to powered active speakers. When I built our first pair, it received very positive responses everyplace we showed the design, but we never sold any. At this point in time, most audiophiles simply don't want self-powered speakers, despite their advantages. They want their favorite preamp, their favorite amp, their favorite DAC, etc.

But this will change over time and a lot of amp manufacturers will be history. Larger companies will dominate the market and only a small number of boutique speaker builders will be left.

Fortunately, at my age I don't really have to worry about that. It will be a few years before the transition takes place. And I'll certainly be retired by then.

- Jim
 

Dennis Murphy

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I think I mentioned in a previous post that I've seen the same kind of lower midrange dip in a number of speakers with little baffle area around the woofer. I just happened to be corresponding with someone this morning who had sent me a pair of DynAudio Emit10 monitors for repair, and the email thread contained a plot of one of the repaired speakers. The Dyn's also have a very small baffle, but are rear ported. My Praxis plot shown below matches the NRC's plot very closely (except for the rising bass toward 100 Hz in the NRC measurement, which is common with rear ported speakers in this anechoic chamber). The Dyn Praxis plot shows a smooth, symmetrical dip due to a lack of high measurement resolution in this area. The same would be true for the WOW plot, assuming I can find one back that far (2012). I sure hope I can get hold of one of the review
WOW's to investigate some more. The NRC plot is here: https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
 

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Adam Bernau

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There is a great deal of merit to this point of view. But we're not there yet.

A number of years ago I got tired of playing CD's at audio shows. So I developed a streaming system to use instead. Since we are primarily a speaker builder, I had no intention of developing this into a product line. After a few years, I changed my attitude because it seemed to me that this was the direction things had to go. So we developed a commercial product called the StreamPlayer.

At the time, I thought I was on the front end of what would be a huge wave. But the fact was, I was too far in front of that wave.

Fast forward a few years and as people saw us use the StreamPlayer at audio shows, we started getting orders. When one of our associates saw how many StreamPlayers we were selling, he suggested we stop building speakers and concentrate on music servers. I disagreed.

I told him that we were involved in a guerrilla market as far was these products were concerned. We would sell what we would sell, but eventually the market potential would grow to a point where large Asian concerns would start producing servers at prices we could never hope to match in smaller volumes.

We still build and ship StreamPlayers today. We aren't at that point yet and we do have one advantage that will help extend the window of opportunity for us. We are able to provide better service should a customer need it. I can log onto their system, locate the issue at hand and fix it, usually in short order. It doesn't matter what day of the week it is, I can fix it as easily on a Sunday as any other day. It would be very difficult for a large audio manufacturer to offer that type of support, especially if they are selling large volumes at retail.

But I would expect that within the next couple of years, sales will eventually fall to zero and the StreamPlayer line will be history.

The same thing applies to powered active speakers. When I built our first pair, it received very positive responses everyplace we showed the design, but we never sold any. At this point in time, most audiophiles simply don't want self-powered speakers, despite their advantages. They want their favorite preamp, their favorite amp, their favorite DAC, etc.

But this will change over time and a lot of amp manufacturers will be history. Larger companies will dominate the market and only a small number of boutique speaker builders will be left.

Fortunately, at my age I don't really have to worry about that. It will be a few years before the transition takes place. And I'll certainly be retired by then.

- Jim
Please, don´t take this as personal attack of any kind, i highly respect everyone who is building something, and i see that you have left your mark on the history of audio.
I am also absolutely certain, that you are doing your best, and you are doing honest work, so respect to that, but as an engineer i have to ask- do you really think, that this is how "surprising bass extension down to 48 Hz" looks like? I can imagine that you perhaps have choosen the midwoofer for specific reasons, but i also think, that it would be fair to not put those claims in your advertising. Btw in this price range there is a lot of possible mid-woofer alternatives, with the same midrange quality, but a lot better sensitivity and excursion, so why, oh why? :)
 
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richard12511

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The same thing applies to powered active speakers. When I built our first pair, it received very positive responses everyplace we showed the design, but we never sold any. At this point in time, most audiophiles simply don't want self-powered speakers, despite their advantages. They want their favorite preamp, their favorite amp, their favorite DAC, etc.
- Jim

I'm hoping this will eventually change. Unfortunately, the majority of audiophiles seem to believe that active speakers can never sound as good as passives.
 

snackiac

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Btw in this price range there is a lot of possible alternatives, with the same midrange quality, but a lot better sensitivity and excursion, so why, oh why? :)

Also not an attack, but what are some? What ticks all the boxes of this price, quality of finish, size, and performance? I also have an issue with appearance and size being a major issue for speaker selection (WAF). I ended up with Ascend Sierra Lunas (with hidden subs) and have been happy with them, but I didn't feel like I was swimming in options when I did the research in buying them.
 

CDMC

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You are right, if sound quality is not a priority. My experience was with an early Selah design, a poor DIY one, and not particularity good looking either, not as slick as my SB Accoustic kits or a S400. But I'm not going to through money at a company that's not delivering quality audio products. Small or large, it doesn't matter.

Do you see the fallacy in your argument? You have extrapolated your sample of one and applied it not only to an entire manufacture’s line of speakers, but gone so far as to apply it another manufacturer’s entire line!!

Your economic analysis is similarly flawed. You assume that everyone shares your buying preferences and that the only measure of utility for a pair of speakers is their sound, which should be of one type. Even the most rational of consumers have differing preferences and assign different utility values to different aspects of the same product.
 
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VeerK

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Jesus, reminds me of a Reddit post of a DIY Wilson knockoff (troelsgravesen?) and the entire speaker was covered in copper panels (sadly the image was deleted).
It was a Troels design IIRC, I saw that post too. It was horrible and beautiful at the same time
 

EchoChamber

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Do you see the fallacy in your argument? You have extrapolated your sample of one and applied it not only to an entire manufacture’s line of speakers, but gone so far as to apply it another manufacturer’s entire line!!

Your economic analysis is similarly flawed. You assume that everyone shares your buying preferences and that the only measure of utility for a pair of speakers is their sound, which should be of one type. Even the most rational consumers have differing preferences and assign different utility values to different aspects of the same product.
I don't assume anything, but that's why I'm here, looking for the best sound quality possible at home within a reasonable amount of money and practicality. If your priority is sound quality, then that's all that matters. That's my priority.

If, on the other hand, you're looking for a big box finished with an exotic wood laminate that produces sound, that's different. And that's fine too. I'm not questioning your choice. And if that expensive box doesn't perform like a hi performance speaker in 2020 should, providing a clear window to the music with maximum transparency and minimum coloration, be objective and open to that. Or show something to back the claims of greatness.

My real life experience with Selah many years ago was not a positive one, I didn't think it was a good investment to buy a second product from a manufacturer I didn't trust to see if that second one worked better than the first one. I gave it a try, it didn't work out, I learned my lesson and moved on, it wasn't the first time (nor the last) I was disappointed with an expensive purchase. Yes, I might be generalizing a bit, but given the current review of the WoW1, my generalization might not be totally unfounded. Please do prove me wrong, I'm open to that.
 
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