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Comparing McIntosh MC462 vs Hypex NC502 objectively

Gyroscopics

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Thanks for the video and other info. I actually own a pair of NC500MP monoblocks. And I can't possibly test its max power output (nor my other amps' output) without blowing up my speakers. That's why I asked the questions in my earlier posts. But since this thread is about the NC502, I didn't wanna derail. I'm aware that the NC502 is higher rated than the NC500 in peak power at 8 ohms (350W vs 270W) but I had my reasons going for the monoblocks.
 
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Dj7675

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Unfortunately you can't really make judgements about the performance of the MC252 by looking at the Mc462, they are not the same. Also note that Amir had a test set up issue with the P502 measurements as discussed in the thread.

If you are looking at the MC462 the a more sensible comparison would be to our p701 mono blocks. Even then you are talking $9000 v $2700. If power isn't a consideration the Purifi based P451 monoblocks are the best performing and beat the McIntosh at less than a quarter of the price.

I will try and find some MC252 measurements so we can make a more valid comparison but as a start.

Mc252
Power Output per Channel
250 Watts into 8 Ohms
250 Watts into 4 Ohms
Signal To Noise Ratio (High Level) 112dB
Total Harmonic Distortion 0.005%

P502
Max Output Power 1KHz All channels
driven. Per channel.
PR, 4Ω - - 500 Wrms
PR, 8Ω - - 350 Wrms
Signal To Noise Ratio 124dB
Total Harmonic Distortion 0.0018%
One comment on this.. on the McIntosh specs, it show the ”maximum total harmonic distortion at .005” Which is at 250mw. Aren’t the harmonic distortion numbers quoted above apples and oranges with the McIntosh showing worst case across the entire band and the P502 showing best case?
 

sirnatealot

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I joined this forum specifically because of a previous post in this thread which I came across looking for bench tests of the 462. This March audio amplifier is nowhere near a competitive product to the 252, which is a great and well loved amplifier but has been out of production for quite some time. It is going to be substantially superior to this 502 amp which they are very hush hush about specification wise. Since it is class D it is going to have some impressive numbers but nothing to back it up. From the previous posts

  • An early post said something along the lines of "the amplifier has the same output at 2,4,8 ohm? I find that hard to believe" -what I find hard to believe is that anyone who is in the audio business does not understand what the impedance matching transformer (autoformer) does. McIntosh has been using this technology for decades. A later post says "and not at the same distortion" and again, yes, that is the purpose of the device. And it has many other benefits. That class D amp is not going to have this kind of technology and that's just the first of many
  • The one that captions sentry monitor and power guard- again, the user does not understand what these mean or do. Powerguard is one of the main reasons to get McIntosh, it's a voltage comparator that reduces the volume if there is distortion and does so until there isnt. This is because even if you can't hear the distortion it will easily damage tweeters.
  • The class D amp specs are given with no tolerance or with no details. In another post it is mentioned that they test at 1k hz. This is a dead giveaway that this is not a high end piece and it is the total opposite of the McIntosh philosophy of conservative design. As a responder mentioned the Mc amp is giving the theoretical worst case, while the class D is giving you perfect condition best case.
  • Dynamic headroom-don't even try on that one. That class D amp will not have it, and even if it did you wouldn't be able to use it.
  • McIntosh reliability- they will always stand behind it. Period. Once this class D goes out of production parts will be unavailable quickly.
  • In summary- In both real listening tests and in meaningful tech specs, the MC252 will absolutely wipe the floor with that class D amp. They aren't even in the same class (pun intended).
  • Look at the value on the used market of the MC252, long out of production, vs two of these class D amps brand new. And the 252 takes a hit on value because of the notch.
The only reason you would ever want to use a class D is if, for some reason, you had space or weight limitations, or for a subwoofer. A quad balanced 462 amplifier VS a class D amp? There is no comparison. Absolutely none.

How McIntosh does things:

250W at ANY frequency, from now until we are all dead, and well below our specification for distortion. Dynamic headroom is pretty much code for "this amp will do x dB overdrive" so that's why they always bench way over the spec.

What I read on that Class D amp:

We got one to do 350w on a bench, probably at 1k, and possibly with one channel driven, and at unspecified distortion. We picked 350w and so we used it. Don't run it that hard though, because it'll clip. Which you shouldn't do.
 
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Gyroscopics

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I agree ^^^. I'm not the OP, but the reason why I bought a class D amp (and ended up with Hypex NCore NC500MP monoblocks) is because I was looking for an amp for whole day background music during this pandemic while I WFH, and go "green" at the same time. I didn't want to use my existing Class-AB amps for this purpose. The Hypex NC252 was initially suggested, but its RMS power rating is too lean, so I went with the higher model as cost was not a factor. This amp did not replace any of my existing amps.
 
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Dj7675

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I joined this forum specifically because of a previous post in this thread which I came across looking for bench tests of the 462. This March audio amplifier is nowhere near a competitive product to the 252, which is a great and well loved amplifier but has been out of production for quite some time. It is going to be substantially superior to this 502 amp which they are very hush hush about specification wise. Since it is class D it is going to have some impressive numbers but nothing to back it up. From the previous posts

  • An early post said something along the lines of "the amplifier has the same output at 2,4,8 ohm? I find that hard to believe" -what I find hard to believe is that anyone who is in the audio business does not understand what the impedance matching transformer (autoformer) does. McIntosh has been using this technology for decades. A later post says "and not at the same distortion" and again, yes, that is the purpose of the device. And it has many other benefits. That class D amp is not going to have this kind of technology and that's just the first of many
  • The one that captions sentry monitor and power guard- again, the user does not understand what these mean or do. Powerguard is one of the main reasons to get McIntosh, it's a voltage comparator that reduces the volume if there is distortion and does so until there isnt. This is because even if you can't hear the distortion it will easily damage tweeters.
  • The class D amp specs are given with no tolerance or with no details. In another post it is mentioned that they test at 1k hz. This is a dead giveaway that this is not a high end piece and it is the total opposite of the McIntosh philosophy of conservative design. As a responder mentioned the Mc amp is giving the theoretical worst case, while the class D is giving you perfect condition best case.
  • Dynamic headroom-don't even try on that one. That class D amp will not have it, and even if it did you wouldn't be able to use it.
  • McIntosh reliability- they will always stand behind it. Period. Once this class D goes out of production parts will be unavailable quickly.
  • In summary- In both real listening tests and in meaningful tech specs, the MC252 will absolutely wipe the floor with that class D amp. They aren't even in the same class (pun intended).
  • Look at the value on the used market of the MC252, long out of production, vs two of these class D amps brand new. And the 252 takes a hit on value because of the notch.
The only reason you would ever want to use a class D is if, for some reason, you had space or weight limitations, or for a subwoofer. A quad balanced 462 amplifier VS a class D amp? There is no comparison. Absolutely none.

How McIntosh does things:

250W at ANY frequency, from now until we are all dead, and well below our specification for distortion. Dynamic headroom is pretty much code for "this amp will do x dB overdrive" so that's why they always bench way over the spec.

What I read on that Class D amp:

We got one to do 350w on a bench, probably at 1k, and possibly with one channel driven, and at unspecified distortion. We picked 350w and so we used it. Don't run it that hard though, because it'll clip. Which you shouldn't do.
I think both sides may underestimate the other in regards to things... First, Amir has tested the nc252,NC502, nc400 (and others) amps from a few different manufacturers. Here are a link to 2 of these
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dio-p502-stereo-amplifier-measurements.10909/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-measurements-of-iom-ncore-pro-pwr-amp.8979/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...and-measurements-of-hypex-nc400-diy-amp.5907/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...easurements-of-purifi-1et400a-amplifier.7984/

The NC400 and Purifi are truly state of the art amps and the other 2 are quite good. Do take a look at the full bench tests above as they will provide all the info you would need.
That being said, I have been very satisfied with my MC252. Offers excellent power, headroom, will hold its value, is repairable, meters, and looks great to me. The cons... weight, cost, power consumption (if a person cares about that) I have not seen a full bench test on the MC252 like Amir has done or stereophile did on the MC462. Have you seen any? I would be interested. The hypex modules have protection built in them, but I am not sure if they are as complete or extensive as McIntosh which is pretty bullet proof. I actually think they are fairly comparable considering the above...just my 2 cents
 

sirnatealot

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Yes agreed, I see that from the mc462 review, but that won't make the power output exactly the same at a specific distortion/power output level.

Yes it will, and yes it does, this is the purpose of the device and it has been in use by McIntosh for 5 decades
I agree ^^^. I'm not the OP, but the reason why I bought a class D amp (and ended up with Hypex NCore NC500MP monoblocks) is because I was looking for an amp for whole day background music during this pandemic while I WFH, and go "green" at the same time. I didn't want to use my existing Class-AB amps for this purpose. The Hypex NC252 was initially suggested, but its RMS power rating is too lean, so I went with the higher model as cost was not a factor. This amp did not replace any of my existing amps.


Absolutely and I would do the same in your spot. If I was to build a sound bar or wanted to power in walls so I can sing in the shower, or for something out by the pool I would do the same. McIntosh even came out with one of these amps. It's an impressive technology for sure and has its uses, but it is not something anyone should consider swapping out their high end big power amps for.

I think we will see AVRs go this way soon, if they haven't already. "Regular" folks who have a pair of $899 kliptsch speakers they got at best buy would probably do well with these. Not people who have $10 or $20k speakers. Class D amplifiers have a tendency to have capacitor exploding, fire starting DC current as clipping and that alone is enough to keep me away. I would be afraid to turn it up.
 

sirnatealot

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I think both sides may underestimate the other in regards to things... First, Amir has tested the nc252,NC502, nc400 (and others) amps from a few different manufacturers. Here are a link to 2 of these
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dio-p502-stereo-amplifier-measurements.10909/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-measurements-of-iom-ncore-pro-pwr-amp.8979/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...and-measurements-of-hypex-nc400-diy-amp.5907/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...easurements-of-purifi-1et400a-amplifier.7984/

The NC400 and Purifi are truly state of the art amps and the other 2 are quite good. Do take a look at the full bench tests above as they will provide all the info you would need.
That being said, I have been very satisfied with my MC252. Offers excellent power, headroom, will hold its value, is repairable, meters, and looks great to me. The cons... weight, cost, power consumption (if a person cares about that) I have not seen a full bench test on the MC252 like Amir has done or stereophile did on the MC462. Have you seen any? I would be interested. The hypex modules have protection built in them, but I am not sure if they are as complete or extensive as McIntosh which is pretty bullet proof. I actually think they are fairly comparable considering the above...just my 2 cents


Here is a direct quote from one of those links from the manufacturer of the class d "Also interesting to see its getting a fair way past the Hypex spec of 500 watts into 4 ohms at 1%. Spec is 350 watts into 8 ohms 1%. I think your figure of 238 watts is at about 0.0035% "

Takeaway-comparing apples to apples, this means it is McIntosh 238w. Your 252 is 250 at probably .0005. That is when I stopped reading. The McIntosh would likely meet or beat their false, misleading spec of 350w at 1%. 1% distortion is no longer the source signal and that 350w number, again, is totally bogus and it is meaningless. Real power output of that amp is 238w.
 

pjug

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I don't know too much about McIntosh amps, but doesn't having the autoformer mean a high output impedance? For example, this is from the Sterophile measurements of the MC462:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/mcintosh-laboratory-mc462-power-amplifier-measurements

The 4 ohm tap's output impedance was almost twice that of the 8 ohm tap—not what I was expecting—while the 2 ohm tap's was 0.14 ohm at low and middle frequencies, rising to 0.185 ohm at the top of the audioband. As a result, the response with our standard simulated loudspeaker varied by ±0.2dB (fig.1, gray trace).
 

Matias

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Welcome to the forum.

This March audio amplifier is nowhere near a competitive product to the 252, which is a great and well loved amplifier but has been out of production for quite some time. It is going to be substantially superior to this 502 amp which they are very hush hush about specification wise. Since it is class D it is going to have some impressive numbers but nothing to back it up.
What? The Hypex datasheets are far more detailed than any McIntosh amplifier manual. Their impressive numbers are backed up by AP measurements shown in graphs, while McIntosh does not provide that.

The class D amp specs are given with no tolerance or with no details. In another post it is mentioned that they test at 1k hz. This is a dead giveaway that this is not a high end piece and it is the total opposite of the McIntosh philosophy of conservative design. As a responder mentioned the Mc amp is giving the theoretical worst case, while the class D is giving you perfect condition best case.

Again, this is not about specifying "conservatively" or "aggressively". Hypex shows the power versus distortion graphs. You can see where the knee is, and when it crosses the industry standard 1% THD line. The 3 lines (blue, green, red) show different frequencies being tested (100Hz, 1kHz, 6.67kHz). This is representative of all situations, bass, mids and high frequencies, low, mid and high power on each. This is far more detailed than a promised worst case with conservative numbers, which is totally unclear ("hush hush" indeed).

Dynamic headroom-don't even try on that one. That class D amp will not have it, and even if it did you wouldn't be able to use it.
Yes, we will try on that one. Did you see Amir's measurements on burst power (both channels driven)? This is not subjective, this is hard measured.

250W at ANY frequency, from now until we are all dead, and well below our specification for distortion. Dynamic headroom is pretty much code for "this amp will do x dB overdrive" so that's why they always bench way over the spec.

What I read on that Class D amp:

We got one to do 350w on a bench, probably at 1k, and possibly with one channel driven, and at unspecified distortion. We picked 350w and so we used it. Don't run it that hard though, because it'll clip. Which you shouldn't do.

Well, you should read what is being measured and shown more carefully then. :)

1%. 1% distortion is no longer the source signal and that 350w number, again, is totally bogus and it is meaningless. Real power output of that amp is 238w.

Again, the industry standard is to specify the measured power in a given impedance when THD hits 1%. But the power versus distortion graphs tell a lot more than the single number. Where are the McIntosh power x THD graphs for each frequency? They don't supply that, making it difficult to compare indeed ("apples to apples"). We have to rely on 3rd parties to show us, and still 1kHz only...

"Regular" folks who have a pair of $899 kliptsch speakers they got at best buy would probably do well with these. Not people who have $10 or $20k speakers.

Really? My speakers retailed for $14k and here I am using them with an NC500 based amplifier. Kii Three also retail for 10k euros a pair.

Class D amplifiers have a tendency to have capacitor exploding, fire starting DC current as clipping and that alone is enough to keep me away. I would be afraid to turn it up.

FUD - fear, uncertainty and doubt. Powerful suggestions.
 
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Dj7675

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@March Audio I recall seeing you doing at ftc test on your p252 (nc252 based) amp and it doing 250w @ 4ohm. Am I recalling that correctly? Have you tried that test with your P502 amp?
 

Willem

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Interestingly Hypex are only a 5 minute bicycle from where I live, and Internet of Music who put Hypex and Purifi modules into cases with nice VU meters are also just a 5 minutes bicycle ride from here, but in the opposite direction. I wonder how this can be.
 

Alexanderc

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1595367649052.gif
 

CDMC

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I joined this forum specifically because of a previous post in this thread which I came across looking for bench tests of the 462. This March audio amplifier is nowhere near a competitive product to the 252, which is a great and well loved amplifier but has been out of production for quite some time. It is going to be substantially superior to this 502 amp which they are very hush hush about specification wise. Since it is class D it is going to have some impressive numbers but nothing to back it up. From the previous posts

  • An early post said something along the lines of "the amplifier has the same output at 2,4,8 ohm? I find that hard to believe" -what I find hard to believe is that anyone who is in the audio business does not understand what the impedance matching transformer (autoformer) does. McIntosh has been using this technology for decades. A later post says "and not at the same distortion" and again, yes, that is the purpose of the device. And it has many other benefits. That class D amp is not going to have this kind of technology and that's just the first of many
  • The one that captions sentry monitor and power guard- again, the user does not understand what these mean or do. Powerguard is one of the main reasons to get McIntosh, it's a voltage comparator that reduces the volume if there is distortion and does so until there isnt. This is because even if you can't hear the distortion it will easily damage tweeters.
  • The class D amp specs are given with no tolerance or with no details. In another post it is mentioned that they test at 1k hz. This is a dead giveaway that this is not a high end piece and it is the total opposite of the McIntosh philosophy of conservative design. As a responder mentioned the Mc amp is giving the theoretical worst case, while the class D is giving you perfect condition best case.
  • Dynamic headroom-don't even try on that one. That class D amp will not have it, and even if it did you wouldn't be able to use it.
  • McIntosh reliability- they will always stand behind it. Period. Once this class D goes out of production parts will be unavailable quickly.
  • In summary- In both real listening tests and in meaningful tech specs, the MC252 will absolutely wipe the floor with that class D amp. They aren't even in the same class (pun intended).
  • Look at the value on the used market of the MC252, long out of production, vs two of these class D amps brand new. And the 252 takes a hit on value because of the notch.
The only reason you would ever want to use a class D is if, for some reason, you had space or weight limitations, or for a subwoofer. A quad balanced 462 amplifier VS a class D amp? There is no comparison. Absolutely none.

How McIntosh does things:

250W at ANY frequency, from now until we are all dead, and well below our specification for distortion. Dynamic headroom is pretty much code for "this amp will do x dB overdrive" so that's why they always bench way over the spec.

What I read on that Class D amp:

We got one to do 350w on a bench, probably at 1k, and possibly with one channel driven, and at unspecified distortion. We picked 350w and so we used it. Don't run it that hard though, because it'll clip. Which you shouldn't do.

Just a few observations:

1) Welcome to the Forum. Just as a general rule when joining any forum, it works best if you don't storm through the doors and tell everyone they are wrong. Personally, I find a good way to broach subjects to either 1) ask questions that will elicit the discussion to move what I am interested in, or 2) suggest reasons that have not been raised that may influence others thoughts. This requires being prepared for the answers and that 1) my opinion could be wrong, 2) my opinion could be correct, or 3) there could be multiple answers to the question all of which are valid.

2) It is obvious you like McIntosh equipment. There is nothing wrong with that. I like my Magnepans and Sunfire amplifier. There is a difference between liking a product and being blindly loyal and unquestioning about it because somehow your ego has become vested in your ownership of a product. Magnepans measure horribly, are terribly inefficient, hog space, lack deep bass, suffer from comb filtering issues, and take up a lot of space. Even with all that, I love the sound of them, but am honest as to their shortcomings. All products have tradeoffs.

3) Spend some time reading actual data and research. Class D amps can work extremely well. Others have already posted information demonstrating that what you posted above is not accurate. Are they the end all, be all? No. Can you find any amp that will put out the same power, at the same price or lower, as cleanly as a Class D amp. No. They offer world class performance for a good price. There is a reason many manufactures are using them and slapping their own non-improved front ends that lessen performance and charging a fortune. A few that spring to mind, Jeff Rowland, McIntosh, PS Audio, and Audio Research.

4) McIntosh's use of autoformers is just strange. They were used to try an mimic how a tube amp worked in the early days of transistors. Why they keep using them is senseless, and many high end review and commentators have asked why they continue to do this. It appears only to try and differentiate their product.

5) Kick back, enjoy, and stay a while.
 

Matias

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CDMC

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I really should take the time and open a new thread called "Class D FAQ" and just send the link to the new members. Would save a lot of typing over and over again.

A good idea.
 

March Audio

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Yes it will, and yes it does, this is the purpose of the device and it has been in use by McIntosh for 5 decades
up.
No it won't, just look at the stereophilexreview to see how distortion changes with load. Put the speaker on a different tap and the distortion characteristics will change throughout the power/frequency range.
 

March Audio

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I joined this forum specifically because of a previous post in this thread which I came across looking for bench tests of the 462. This March audio amplifier is nowhere near a competitive product to the 252, which is a great and well loved amplifier but has been out of production for quite some time. It is going to be substantially superior to this 502 amp which they are very hush hush about specification wise. Since it is class D it is going to have some impressive numbers but nothing to back it up. From the previous posts

  • An early post said something along the lines of "the amplifier has the same output at 2,4,8 ohm? I find that hard to believe" -what I find hard to believe is that anyone who is in the audio business does not understand what the impedance matching transformer (autoformer) does. McIntosh has been using this technology for decades. A later post says "and not at the same distortion" and again, yes, that is the purpose of the device. And it has many other benefits. That class D amp is not going to have this kind of technology and that's just the first of many
  • The one that captions sentry monitor and power guard- again, the user does not understand what these mean or do. Powerguard is one of the main reasons to get McIntosh, it's a voltage comparator that reduces the volume if there is distortion and does so until there isnt. This is because even if you can't hear the distortion it will easily damage tweeters.
  • The class D amp specs are given with no tolerance or with no details. In another post it is mentioned that they test at 1k hz. This is a dead giveaway that this is not a high end piece and it is the total opposite of the McIntosh philosophy of conservative design. As a responder mentioned the Mc amp is giving the theoretical worst case, while the class D is giving you perfect condition best case.
  • Dynamic headroom-don't even try on that one. That class D amp will not have it, and even if it did you wouldn't be able to use it.
  • McIntosh reliability- they will always stand behind it. Period. Once this class D goes out of production parts will be unavailable quickly.
  • In summary- In both real listening tests and in meaningful tech specs, the MC252 will absolutely wipe the floor with that class D amp. They aren't even in the same class (pun intended).
  • Look at the value on the used market of the MC252, long out of production, vs two of these class D amps brand new. And the 252 takes a hit on value because of the notch.
The only reason you would ever want to use a class D is if, for some reason, you had space or weight limitations, or for a subwoofer. A quad balanced 462 amplifier VS a class D amp? There is no comparison. Absolutely none.

How McIntosh does things:

250W at ANY frequency, from now until we are all dead, and well below our specification for distortion. Dynamic headroom is pretty much code for "this amp will do x dB overdrive" so that's why they always bench way over the spec.

What I read on that Class D amp:

We got one to do 350w on a bench, probably at 1k, and possibly with one channel driven, and at unspecified distortion. We picked 350w and so we used it. Don't run it that hard though, because it'll clip. Which you shouldn't do.

There is no basis for your conclusions there. In fact your comments betray an ignorance of the subject, some of the true answers you will even find in this thread.

  1. Covered point 1 above.
  2. "even if you can't hear distortion it can damage tweeters". Can you cite what basis you make that statement? Considering that the Mc is the only amp I know with this feature, can you explain how the millions of other amps out there have managed to not blow up the attached tweeters? IMO it's an unnecessary feature for anyone that has a the slightest idea of what distortion sounds like. I would hope most here would be able to detect it way before it damages tweeters.
  3. The class d specs from Hypex and Purifi are the most detailed I have seen from any manufacturer. Yes they test across the frequency range. I will link some below. Have you taken a look at the Mc specs and seen how little detail they put in?
  4. We have already discussed dynamic headroom in this thread. Amir tested this on the P502 and it can achieve 650 watts when rated at 500 watts. So you are simply wrong.
  5. You are just demonstrably wrong on both counts.
  6. You are just demonstrably wrong.
I get your post was just a provocative wind up ;) but it's, always good to highlight facts over ignorance.

As to the P252 being a competitive product to the MC252, well I think that better performance at 1/7th of the price might just also contradict your view there ;)

https://www.hypex.nl/documenten/download/911
 
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March Audio

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I don't know too much about McIntosh amps, but doesn't having the autoformer mean a high output impedance? For example, this is from the Sterophile measurements of the MC462:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/mcintosh-laboratory-mc462-power-amplifier-measurements

The 4 ohm tap's output impedance was almost twice that of the 8 ohm tap—not what I was expecting—while the 2 ohm tap's was 0.14 ohm at low and middle frequencies, rising to 0.185 ohm at the top of the audioband. As a result, the response with our standard simulated loudspeaker varied by ±0.2dB (fig.1, gray trace).
It does, which will ultimately mean more frequency response variation with more difficult speaker loads. The MC252 will have a smaller transformer which in turn mean higher impedance again. The P502 output impedance is 0.002 ohms.
 
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March Audio

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I think we will see AVRs go this way soon, if they haven't already. "Regular" folks who have a pair of $899 kliptsch speakers they got at best buy would probably do well with these. Not people who have $10 or $20k speakers. Class D amplifiers have a tendency to have capacitor exploding, fire starting DC current as clipping and that alone is enough to keep me away. I would be afraid to turn it up.

Where did you get this nonsense from? Please cite examples.

You don't sell / manufacture class A/B amps by any chance? ;)
 
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