Maybe one of grandpa's walkers that has a shelf for groceries on it. Only get two.
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GGNTKT @ Purité Audio
- Thread starter Purité Audio
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Well, actually the proportions are almost the same as with "conventional" speaker, just 90° turned around – we just switched depth and with.
As for Model M1 there is a stand coming, which is discussed over here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ggntkt-model-m1.12959/page-2#post-408731
As for Model M2 there is much weigh distributed at the botton. For example the 12" woofer (placed at the rear button) alone is 11 kg (24 lbs).
Both speakers are intended (but don't need to) to be placed next to a (back) wall, so ist can only fall in one direction, so to say.
The woofers look impresive togheter with a compression horn, active driven? That could be realy a way to come more into contact with your neighbours.
Yes, both Model M1 and M2 are fully 3-way active and digital (DSP controlled). Also you are right with the compression driver, but the horn is more like a waveguide, because it it has much less depth.
Two 12" woofers are left in the shoot-out (Klippel LSI / laser) – both have impressive figures: +/- 11mm (0,45") xmax, 100 mm (4") voicecoil, 200 mm (8") magnet, 1000W AES. Each will deliver 105db SPL @35 Hz, which will be more than sufficient in every home (home cinemas LFE excluded).
HaHa you are funny.
Edit says: Just tried to imagine the right subi for them.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #25
Grimm LS1 has a similar form factor, placing the sub at the bottom between its legs makes it pretty stable.
You can push any speaker over if you try hard enough.
Keith
You can push any speaker over if you try hard enough.
Keith
For music you don't really need bass <30 Hz.
But with artificial content and LFE signal there is much down to 20 Hz and even below.
We will have a dedicated home cinema speaker and an 21" woofers array in 2021.
But with artificial content and LFE signal there is much down to 20 Hz and even below.
We will have a dedicated home cinema speaker and an 21" woofers array in 2021.
"..21 woofers array..."? Sounds freaky! Whats it??
Probably very similar to the fact 8, but flipped.
Are you going to do something similar with the feet?
The Naim DBL was similar, just over a foot deep from memory, designed for hard against the wall use.
That's a 15" bass driver for scale.
Probably very similar to the fact 8, but flipped.
Are you going to do something similar with the feet?
The weight distribution is different tho.
Yes, better in the unpronounceable one. The fact 8 is very light all over.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #32
The M1’s outboard electronics,
Keith
Keith
I think the amps are Pascal 3s. Amir reviewed the Rowland 535 which employed Pascal 2s, and had a Sinad of 77db which was not terribly impressive.The M1’s outboard electronics,
Keith
OP
- Thread Starter
- #34
The 8Cs use Pascal modules and they are pretty decent.
Keith
Keith
Ok. I'm not saying it's a deal breaker or even the most important factor, but performative quality of the electronics remains a consideration with all these active designs. AFIK, the only design with an impeccable pedigree in this regard are the Kiis which use Hypex NC400 modules.
BTW, is a review with listening impressions forthcoming soon? Would really like to hear your impressions of this design.
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Hi there,
Model M1 uses Pascal U-PRO2S(D) modules. Mytek also uses these U-PROs, but just 2-channels (we have 6 – but look at their MSRP).
AFAIK D&D 8C uses the S-PROs, which are also used by Jeff Rowland 535.
Today amp technology is commodity, that means you buy off-the-shelf. The only reason you do it in-house is (a) you have very special requirements or (b) want to participate in the value added chain (mostly needed in high volume scales). Before GGNTKT I was in a company that was highly vertical integrated, so we did our amp and DSP-PCBs on our own. That's why I can tell how hard it is to beat good suppliers in performance or price – you won't in most cases.
In 2018 we looked at the top tier of classD technology for OEMs which is ICEPower, Abletec/ETAL Anaview, Powersoft, RAM Audio, Pascal and Hypex. We did quite a lot research and testing. In the end there was Pascal and Hypex left. Even they are more expensive we went with Pascal, because they fitted better in our systems in terms of robustness, flexibility, packaging and support.
Talking about audio performance it's all about implementation. Even if you get ready-to-use amps modules and power supplies, you have to design your own input-stages, mains filtering, output filtering, EMI concept, cooling-concept, wiring-harnesses etc. Especially with classD many things can go wrong. I don't know the Jeff Rowland design that Amir tested in detail, but judging from the photos it seems they did some uncommon design decision which differs from the Pascal best-practices. The point is, you can really screw up a good amp-PCBs design with non-optimal implementation.
We worked about half a year closely with Pascal to get the best out of the amp modules in our implementation. They do measure and sound very good and comparable with the Hypex Ncore. You can also have a look at an (German) research paper that shows some Hypex and Pascal measurements, along with others.
– roland
Model M1 uses Pascal U-PRO2S(D) modules. Mytek also uses these U-PROs, but just 2-channels (we have 6 – but look at their MSRP).
AFAIK D&D 8C uses the S-PROs, which are also used by Jeff Rowland 535.
Today amp technology is commodity, that means you buy off-the-shelf. The only reason you do it in-house is (a) you have very special requirements or (b) want to participate in the value added chain (mostly needed in high volume scales). Before GGNTKT I was in a company that was highly vertical integrated, so we did our amp and DSP-PCBs on our own. That's why I can tell how hard it is to beat good suppliers in performance or price – you won't in most cases.
In 2018 we looked at the top tier of classD technology for OEMs which is ICEPower, Abletec/ETAL Anaview, Powersoft, RAM Audio, Pascal and Hypex. We did quite a lot research and testing. In the end there was Pascal and Hypex left. Even they are more expensive we went with Pascal, because they fitted better in our systems in terms of robustness, flexibility, packaging and support.
Talking about audio performance it's all about implementation. Even if you get ready-to-use amps modules and power supplies, you have to design your own input-stages, mains filtering, output filtering, EMI concept, cooling-concept, wiring-harnesses etc. Especially with classD many things can go wrong. I don't know the Jeff Rowland design that Amir tested in detail, but judging from the photos it seems they did some uncommon design decision which differs from the Pascal best-practices. The point is, you can really screw up a good amp-PCBs design with non-optimal implementation.
We worked about half a year closely with Pascal to get the best out of the amp modules in our implementation. They do measure and sound very good and comparable with the Hypex Ncore. You can also have a look at an (German) research paper that shows some Hypex and Pascal measurements, along with others.
– roland
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Thanks for the paper, the website "THD+N < 0.05%" figure was a bit weak, but it's around 10 kHz, it's only 0.01% at 1 kHz and reaches 0.03% at 2.5 kHz. Still, the Hypex looks a lot better since the distorsion starts to rise a lot latter in frequency (100 Hz and 1 kHz are both under 0.003% while providing more oomph). Noise value of the Hypex is also a lot better (-93 vs -84 dB), which can matter when using a quite deep waveguide.
And my (possibly faulty) memory tells me that the NC400 or even NC500 provide better specs.
But well, except for the noise, it simply won't matter when going into a speaker; especially a small 2.5 way. I would have liked to see the Purifi in that challenge (too late, I know), though.
We found the performance advantage of Hypex NCxxxx-Series is a result of not having a SMPS onboard, which yields to less noise.
If you compare NCxxxMP with integrated power supply to the Pascal modules they are very close together.
However we couldn't find any audible difference.
If you compare NCxxxMP with integrated power supply to the Pascal modules they are very close together.
However we couldn't find any audible difference.
Just to be clear here, you are referring to a version of the NCores which have the SMPS integrated and on the same board as the amps, not a DIY version of the NC400 and separate SMPS1200A400 or the SMPS600N400, both of which document as producing amps with THD+N of .0005% or less (Sinad 105db).
And the paper you refer to lists the THD+N performance of the Pascal Modules as .05% at 10khz, .03% at 2.5 Khz, and .01% at 1kz which translates respectively into Sinads of 66db, 70db, and 80db. That performance seems to be in the same league as the Roland 535.
This is not to say that the amplification isn't good enough and perfectly transparent, but I still believe it is a fair question to be asked.
Overall, the M1 still looks like a very interesting design and it may well be a fantastic value, but I certainly would like to see it tested and measured by a few sources like Amir, Napilopez, and even John Atkinson.
And it still is on my short list along with Revel 208s, Gradient 1.4s, Kef Ref1s, Genelec 8341s, Neumann 310s and (if I really want to harm my bank account) Dutch & Dutch 8c Studios. And, yes, I have the same question about the active designs on short list, as I do re the M1s.
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