• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Mark Waldrep's HD audio challenge II

OP
Blumlein 88

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,759
Likes
37,603
One of the better things to do with hi-sample rate material is slow it down to 50% or 25% normal after you filter out all the below 20 khz material and listen to what is there. Some recordings do at least have music related signal there and some have only noise. I don't think the ultrasonic material is important, but I certainly don't think high sample rate noise helps anything sound different/better.
 

Tks

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
3,221
Likes
5,497
I hate that for all of us.
We defenitely need more than one offering.

Likewise, but this is the economic reality of the world when you want thriving competition. Competition occurs, a victor comes out on top, rules everything until complacency sets in, and then new contenders have a shot at dethroning them if the prior victor's hibernation was too long.

The only problem is, the ruling period seems to drag on for quite a long time as consolidations are constantly becoming bigger where the influence sphere supersedes national boundaries.

You can see this occurring with Intel for example currently, AMD is gaining so much ground, while the past decade Intel has been murdering everything as a sort of soft-monopoly, of which they enjoyed 5 years of uncontested winning, and complacency set in. Now they're scrambling like headless chickens, luckily for them, their market share was extremely high (I think well over 50% in the professional sector of hardware), so companies haven't jumped ship to AMD that quickly, but are currently in that process.

The difference with Amazon VS Qobuz, is Amazon does not sleep, in the same way Apple hasn't slept since their resurgence (though their complacency and lack of innovation is showing more and more these days). Amazon treats all competition as something that needs to not only be superseded, but steamrolled as soon as possibly able. Qobuz needs to offer something Amazon doesn't. Amazon in the past has demonstrated to everyone that they will take a losses for as long as needed, to starve out competitors. The only problem is, these are services that are battling. With hardware in the past you can at least offer your customers something physical that they could enjoy to perpetuity any time they feel like. With online-only service structures, there's no beating Amazon by simply offering a better built and more easy to use app - why? Because they can simply hire out the people who made your app, or simply people better than them, and eventually beat you. Unlike physical products where no matter what Amazon did, they could never offer the level of finishing on a luxury watch, that for example Vacheron Constantine, or Patek could.

Software/tech service companies are the purest battleground and fertile breeding ground for monopolies. The laws rarely have the level of reach that the company or it's tech does (beyond national limits). And consolidation of power is logistically as easy as merging the rights of one companies tech, to the now company buying them.

In tech, if you're not offering niche, you simply will not have any room for much success. Unless you have a great product, which of course will be bought from you, and incorporated into the ruling staple few companies.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,657
Likes
240,870
Location
Seattle Area
I suspect Amazon has negotiated much better deal with Labels than anything Qobuz and Tidal can get. They have much better brand and much more volume through their normal services.
 

Tks

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
3,221
Likes
5,497
^ That's one of the examples of the actual factors where you simply cannot compete with someone like Amazon if they decide to compete in the same realm as you do.

Spotify I would also like to mention, is also in some very very tumultuous waters. Their earnings reports haven't been particularly encouraging indications. And to investors (basically your life blood for existence on the public market) is everything.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,657
Likes
240,870
Location
Seattle Area
^ That's one of the examples of the actual factors where you simply cannot compete with someone like Amazon if they decide to compete in the same realm as you do.
Indeed. This is why venture capitalists hardly ever fund a start up that is trying to get ahead of a major company like Google, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, etc. They know one day you wake up and your world as you know it is over.
 

Rja4000

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 31, 2019
Messages
2,755
Likes
4,673
Location
Liège, Belgium
I suspect Amazon has negotiated much better deal with Labels than anything Qobuz and Tidal can get.
That's probably true.
Nevertheless, I keep Qobuz for the foreseeable future.
I can still vote with my money so far.
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,194
Likes
16,916
Location
Central Fl
^ That's one of the examples of the actual factors where you simply cannot compete with someone like Amazon if they decide to compete in the same realm as you do.

Spotify I would also like to mention, is also in some very very tumultuous waters. Their earnings reports haven't been particularly encouraging indications. And to investors (basically your life blood for existence on the public market) is everything.
Spotify is in deep deep poop. I believe either they start a HD stream for the current top price, or die.
They have the biggest customer base by far but it won't take terribly long for word to get around that Amazon has a "better sounding" High Definition stream for the same price as Spotify's compressed low quality stream. Once Amazon starts to drive that idea into Joe Sixpack's head with some slick marketing, the writing will be on the wall for Spotify.
Just my 2 cents
 

Tks

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
3,221
Likes
5,497
Spotify is in deep deep poop. I believe either they start a HD stream for the current top price, or die.
They have the biggest customer base by far but it won't take terribly long for word to get around that Amazon has a "better sounding" High Definition stream for the same price as Spotify's compressed low quality stream. Once Amazon starts to drive that idea into Joe Sixpack's head with some slick marketing, the writing will be on the wall for Spotify.
Just my 2 cents

Spotify can survive due to their market presence and current library, their only problem is the actual math in terms of their profitability (or lack of it essentially). They still have a decent app and ease of use with sharing playlists and such that folks enjoy. I haven't used Amazon enough to know how that whole thing works or even if it exists, I just fire up the app and let music play (I got Amazon Prime, and couldn't care less about "HD" streaming, MP3 256VBR is more than fine for me, and most of my library is FLAC music, but only because storage is dirt cheap, and I like having "archival grade" formats so I never have to worry about if I need to convert into another file format for mobile use, and potentially crushing the quality twice over with a second lossy conversion. I only use Amazon if I feel like listening to random stuff. It's definitely not something I use much at all otherwise really.

Also Spotify.. people have no idea what sort of quality they stream. They're quite a bit closed-source in that sense where you don't know anymore what quality you're actually streaming at (it used to be possible to know, but not anymore).
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,454
Likes
15,806
Location
Oxfordshire
And his statement:
"So it’s time to face the hard facts IMHO. Hi-Res Audio or HD-Audio, the much touted next generation in music fidelity, should NOT be a major determining factor when selecting which music to enjoy. As I’ve often stated in these articles, it is the production path that establishes the fidelity of the final master. Things like how a track was recorded, what processing was applied during recording and mixing, and how the tracks were ultimately mastered. If all of these things are done with maximizing fidelity as the primary goal, a great track will result. However, it’s very easy to destroy fidelity at any number of steps in the process."
Which was always self evident IMHO since if this was not the case how could there so many fabulous sounding CDs available and many superbly recorded and mixed LPs, which are not even as good as CDs fidelity wise, sound fabulous too.
 

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,740
Likes
6,454
Mark writes: If the original master of an album or track was produced prior to the introduction of high-resolution recording equipment, then it is impossible for that album or track to be considered “hi-res audio” in spite of the best marketing efforts of the labels and others.

In fact he underscores the 'hidden' point that Hi Res is mostly a marketing tool. A way to sell old product in a new package. Check out the Hi Res download sites and I'll bet the majority of high bandwidth offerings are old analog recordings. As I've said, does anyone anywhere think that Hank Williams' Hey Good Lookin' is going to sound better in 96/24 than standard CD? Possibly better than the 45 you have in your Wurlitzer, I'll admit that.

Back when 'Old Neil' was putting down CD and hawking his Pono it should have been obvious that a middle aged rocker wouldn't have much hearing left for him to even tell the difference. LOL

If a particular Hi Res recording sounds different it's because of differences in mastering/production and not the number of digits used.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 18, 2019
Messages
1,895
Likes
4,162
Location
Winnipeg Canada
Back when 'Old Neil' was putting down CD and hawking his Pono it should have been obvious that a middle aged rocker wouldn't have much hearing left for him to even tell the difference. LOL

Chronologically, Neil Young might have still been "middle-aged" when he was hawking the Pono but his ears left middle age by about 1980! lol. I'd bet he had the ears of a 100 year old man by 2000. :D
 

ex audiophile

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 28, 2017
Messages
635
Likes
806
An oft repeated expression in medicine is "when there is a cure for cancer you won't need a statistician to prove it". Look how hard people try to document what minute audible differences there might be between these digital formats. If there truly was an audible difference we'd all know it. I suggest we focus our energies on room correction and speakers where some genuine progress can be made.
 

Archsam

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2020
Messages
326
Likes
516
Location
London, UK
so..... i guess it's too late to take part in this test now? The files don't seem to be on the original page anymore.

Talk about showing up fashionably late lol
 

Lao Lu

Active Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
109
Likes
123
so..... i guess it's too late to take part in this test now? The files don't seem to be on the original page anymore.

Talk about showing up fashionably late lol
You might try downloading three copies (MP3, Cd-Flac, and 24bit-96hz) of the same track from someone reliable like prestomusic.com ...I can still hear 15-16 kHz and I cannot really detect a difference between the latter two...sometimes it seems as if there is a bit more "there there" but if there is, the difference is slight.....as for a 320 MP3, I think more people could pick those out.....
 

DChenery

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
205
Likes
453
Location
Nanoose Bay
You might try downloading three copies (MP3, Cd-Flac, and 24bit-96hz) of the same track from someone reliable like prestomusic.com ...I can still hear 15-16 kHz and I cannot really detect a difference between the latter two...sometimes it seems as if there is a bit more "there there" but if there is, the difference is slight.....as for a 320 MP3, I think more people could pick those out.....

To participate, you need to go to the Blog page (https://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6713) and sign up. Dr. Waldrup will then send you a link to the drop box where you can download the files. This was detailed in an email I recieved on 22/07/2020, so hopefully is still working.
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
28
Likes
56
It appears that the paper he is writing based on these results has been accepted for publication in AES: http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=7027

I just finished my listening this weekend. Anyone interested can still sign up and get the files. I do have to say though, going through 20 tracks in critical listening mode is somewhat exhausting.

Cheers,
Seb
 
Top Bottom