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Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

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I need some help understanding what the implications of this are for me.

First of all: Is that 1.4V RMS or 1.4V peak? I'm guessing RMS but I just want to make sure.

Second: I want to use this with Hypex NC252MP based amplifiers (with balanced inputs) for LCR in a 5.0 setup. So I am not able to go into pre-amp mode, right? If I am reading the datasheet right the amp module requires a balanced input level of 1.66V RMS / 2.34V Peak to achieve it's maximum output.

Since the Denon does not have balanced outputs, how would this change the sensitivity? Would the requried voltage change? If the sensitivity is then still above 1.4V would that mean that I can just not get the maximum power out of my amp? So I could just listen at a lower level and be fine? Or would there be some problems even at lower listening levels?

Edit: Another question.. How could I go about measuring the voltage that I need to achieve my preferred listening levels? Can I just play like a 1kHz tone at 0dB, turn the volume up to my listening level and then measure the pre-amp output with my multimeter? If so, would I measure with a load (amplifier + speakers) connected or without?
I am sitting here with the same questions in my head to determine if it would make sense to power my C speaker with a NC400 external amp together with a pair of active L and R
 

scooter

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How could I go about measuring the voltage that I need to achieve my preferred listening levels? Can I just play like a 1kHz tone at 0dB, turn the volume up to my listening level and then measure the pre-amp output with my multimeter? If so, would I measure with a load (amplifier + speakers) connected or without?
By using single tone it will be difficult to obtain desired listening level. Our ears will be too sensitive to 1 kHz, IMHO. But you can try because it will be easy to measure voltage with an ordinary multimeter. In other cases you'd need a proper measuring device.
 

scooter

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Most of this is general design ahead of the DAC (Grounding, Re-clocking, Jitter etc), the DAC itself isnt that involved.
I've just seen many examples when Amir tested various "usb filters/purifiers" and concluded that properly implemented DAC does not need any additional pre-filtering.
 

rccarguy

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Does this mean the issue with arcam."large" mode is also similar fault with testing?

Also I have been using only 2.1 on my avr for a while, different brand but many people just use two speakers, as a avr offers hmdi and bass management, DD/dts decoding, something stereo amps lack
 

ririt

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Looking at the new data set from Amir, it sounds to me that using the avr-x4700 in full preamp mode gives state of the art AV processor performances for less than half of the price of competitors like Arcam, Anthem or Emotiva for those who only need limited configuration like e.g. 5.1 or 7.1. Since SINAD remains above 90dB until 3V output, it seems to me that the avr-x4700 can be associated with most of the popular amplifiers available including Hypex and most of the Purifi amps.
Am I right or my assumptions are too much optimistics?
 

scooter

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Why would you guys need an AVR to use it solely as a preamplifier? Wouldn't it be more practical to invest the same money in standalone multichannel DAC/preamplifier?
 

rccarguy

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Why would you guys need an AVR to use it solely as a preamplifier? Wouldn't it be more practical to invest the same money in standalone multichannel DAC/preamplifier?

I agreed however av pre amps are very expensive. £1500-£32,000
 

rxp

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Why spend so much on a avr for just Stereo?
Could be because modern AVR's do have some virtualization techniques that let you have more of a surround feel just from two channels. It does work if you can get your head into the sweet spot and play with reflection/diffusion until it's spot on.
 

Gedeon

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There also might be differences between processing 8 pcm coded input channels and DTS/Dolby inputs.

The down mixer could behave in different ways.
 

Daze

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By using single tone it will be difficult to obtain desired listening level. Our ears will be too sensitive to 1 kHz, IMHO. But you can try because it will be easy to measure voltage with an ordinary multimeter. In other cases you'd need a proper measuring device.

Well my idea was this: I play music or a movie and turn the volume up to my preferred listening level. Then I play the test-tone with the same volume settings and measure the pre-amp voltage. Would that work or is that a stupid idea?
 

SimpleTheater

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Someone asked at what volume setting you get 1.4 volt/optimal SINAD from pre outs with amps off. The answer is 79 (+- 0.5).
This is great information and I’d like to ask if you can put this information into your future reviews. Thanks for the great work.
 

scooter

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Well my idea was this: I play music or a movie and turn the volume up to my preferred listening level. Then I play the test-tone with the same volume settings and measure the pre-amp voltage. Would that work or is that a stupid idea?
It is a good idea, but probably would raise a question whether the music or single tone files being played, are recorded with the same levels.
Actually, if I had this AVR I'd perform the test you described.
 

SimpleTheater

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Does this mean the issue with arcam."large" mode is also similar fault with testing?
The issue is a bug in the product design, not with a fault in the testing. However since the test was two channel it is only fair to test that configuration by sending it two channels. This issue will hopefully be fixed via firmware. If I was in the market for only 9.2 channel AVR this bug would be a non-starter for my uses as I use many multi channel music and let the AVR downmix to stereo. @amirm confirmed this problem does not appear in the Yamaha AVR he tested, which is good because I use a Yamaha.
 

SimpleTheater

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Why would you guys need an AVR to use it solely as a preamplifier? Wouldn't it be more practical to invest the same money in standalone multichannel DAC/preamplifier?
Because some people go through AVR’s every few years, so they already have dedicated amps. You’ll find that a good AVR will do everything a dedicated preamp can do at a fraction of the cost. Assuming that Denon fixes the downmixing issue, the X6700 is a 11.2 channel solution that will better the cheapest 11.2 dedicated preamp available. Now the Audyssey vs Dirac argument can commence.
 

Krobar

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Why spend so much on a avr for just Stereo?

I'm going to out on a limb here and say 99% of HT user wont use stereo downmix and hence the bug being referred to is largely irrelevant. Plain stereo performance of HT equipment is relevant.

AFAIK Even when stereo downmix is implemented correctly there will be an inevitable loss of fidelity as levels must be adjusted.
 

Krobar

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Looking at the new data set from Amir, it sounds to me that using the avr-x4700 in full preamp mode gives state of the art AV processor performances for less than half of the price of competitors like Arcam, Anthem or Emotiva for those who only need limited configuration like e.g. 5.1 or 7.1. Since SINAD remains above 90dB until 3V output, it seems to me that the avr-x4700 can be associated with most of the popular amplifiers available including Hypex and most of the Purifi amps.
Am I right or my assumptions are too much optimistics?

I think you are correct although most people would not consider 90dB state of the art.
 

ririt

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I think you are correct although most people would not consider 90dB state of the art.
You are right, a 90dB is not state of the art from an pure audiophile point of view. However, according to all the AVR evaluations performed by Amir, such sound quality can be considered as state of the art for people like me who are looking for good systems able to do 50% hifi / 50 % HC without duplicating the entire set-up.
 

tecnogadget

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Why would you guys need an AVR to use it solely as a preamplifier? Wouldn't it be more practical to invest the same money in standalone multichannel DAC/preamplifier?

I have an old TOTL/SOTA AVR that does not have HDMI. It means I get state of the art amplification and DAC performance for lossless 2.0 throughout coaxial & toslink. If I wanted lossless multichannel I would need an external box, and this happens with blu-rays.
A standalone DAC won’t decode Movies soundtracks or receive LPCM from Blu Ray player since it will also lack HDMI input.
Amir has already measured several pure Preamp/Processors and they are incredibly expensive (most startig at $2000/2500) and bad performers.
With the above facts, a X4700H or X3600H used purely as a preamp becomes a bargain even if you are getting less than 100dB SINAD, they do the work, you get uncompressed Blu Ray audio decoded, and all the future compatibility for 4K, 8K, HDMI 2.1 features, etc.
 

tecnogadget

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You are right, a 90dB is not state of the art from an pure audiophile point of view. However, according to all the AVR evaluations performed by Amir, such sound quality can be considered as state of the art for people like me who are looking for good systems able to do 50% hifi / 50 % HC without duplicating the entire set-up.

Exactly. And if you consider Toole’s research, multichanel somewhat masks lots of defects, in a way it could be considered more “forgiving”.
In a properly set up high quality system you are getting so much information from so many places (360° and depending of your configuration almost a hemisphere of sound is arriving to your ears) that you brain get tricked and won’t even be able to discern between 90dB and 100dB SINAD, due to excess of stimulation and information.
 
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