Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[davidc]

Eeh.. while I have no doubt that there is frequency colored gear out there, I've personally never encountered it outside of a slight roll-off in the 20KHz section.

My personal experience is, that I can't for the life of me hear differences between electronic components (Headphone amps with a large output impedance excluded). My buddy wanted a stereo amp next to his AVR because everyone (not me) told him that AVRs sound bad. So he loaned a 3000€ Streamer/Amp combo from Cambridge audio. Exited he was and let me in on the test. We hooked it up and... well.. pretty long faces on that couch once we played music (though not unexpected from my PoV).

No difference, except very slightly leaner and more focused bass (probably damping factor related). Needless to say, he saved the 3 Kilobucks for sth else.

Yes, generally a flat in room FR will sound bright, thin and is not recommended as the final setting. It is supposed to be the first step before you apply the house curve, which is governed entirely by your own preference.
Most speakers are already tuned to a downward sloping FR, for folks that do not use EQ.

It is so frustrating in my older Denon 4311ci that I'm not allowed to use any tone control if I've used my Audyssey MultiXT32. So, I guess I can perfectly optimized frq resp and time delay, that sounds thin and flat. Ugh. This is my one single biggest reason to want to upgrade to a new AVR

 

[davidc]

I’m actually quite interested in the Marantz 6013, also with 7 channel inputs. I’ve been trying to find a 3 channel amp to offload the L/C/R from my Yamaha 3060 (and also from any future AVR I get). Denon AVR amps [I will repeat, the amps] have done quite well in testing, If the Marantz is built similarly a used SR6013 would be a bargain compared to any dedicated amp that has been tested so far. Alas, the SR6013 hasn’t been tested.

I'd look for a restored classic Carver amp. There is a site dedicated to this. It's what I just did and couldn't be happier. Now...if we can get some decent measured AVR's, I'll upgrade that as well.

 

[Sanctum OF Bass]

Firmware update

 

[Fillius]

I asked about the turned-back panther earlier; just following up.

I know, that was my guess as to why it's back was turned.

 

[GAmbrose]

Firmware update View attachment 70770

Trouble is with Denon, they never seem to tell you what the updates are for anywhere online.

Would this be enough to warrant re-testing for instance?

 

[Timbo2]

This is like complaining to Toyota that the latest Camry can only do 0-60 in 9 seconds, whereas last year it was 8.7 seconds.

Some of us care and some of us have neither the physical room or resources to devote to multiple systems.

And if Toyota's marketing drivel said that their new Camry "better in every way", but was actually albeit imperceptibly slower you'd be a bit annoyed with them.

If you have no interest in a high performing AVR that's fine, but I don't understand why some people here seem to think that's an unreasonable thing to ask from the marketplace.

 

[peng]

Some of us care and some of us have neither the physical room or resources to devote to multiple systems.

And if Toyota's marketing drivel said that their new Camry "better in every way", but was actually albeit imperceptibly slower you'd be a bit annoyed with them.

If you have no interest in a high performing AVR that's fine, but I don't understand why some people here seem to think that's an unreasonable thing to ask from the marketplace.

Agreed to both of you because a) preload is right but only if Amir or Denon can explain why the 32 tone test results and the linearity (to lesser extent) were so bad, and b) if a) is explained and would not have been bad, but we still focus on the "engineering excellence part..".

Otherwise, i.e. if a) is in fact not so bad as it appeared for valid reasons, then while I fully agree we as hobbyist are doing the right thing complaining about the poor results of a higher/more expensive model, we should make some effort in the way we complain, that it may (and evidently it has) lead less informed/technically less knowledgeable potential buyers and owners (worst in that case) to think that this is in fact a product to be avoided, and may even end up buying a competing product that could have been shown worse, if measured by ASR.

So to summarize, I think it is good that we complain like we have been to Denon, but do it in a more balanced way. For example, we can say 75 dB SINAD using HDMI input is much worse than the lower model and totally unacceptable, but it is as good as some separate processor only device such as the AV7705 (when measured at 4 V XLR), to put things in perspective, etc. etc..

 

[peng]

There is nothing yet to report. We are still trying to setup a call to discuss the matter.

Note that as a professional courtesy to Denon, I won't be outlining everything we discuss. I like them to be free to explain problems, limitations, etc that they may have. So there won't be a blow by blow transcription from me. Hope you understand.

Thank you for the effort to engage them. Please remember to push for an explanation for the 32 tones test results. That one is truly terrible even from audibility stand point and I think everyone including the opposite of golden ears would agree right? I hope they will also send you another unit for a re-test, if deem necessary by both parties.

And it would be great if they would send you a AVR-X4500H so you can find out if the new DSP features and the 8K HDMI board affect performance and if so, to what agree. On this, I am so curious to know that honestly if I can afford it, I would buy one (X4400H or X4500H) for you to test, but I am not so rich.

 

[Orbit]

It would be super helpful to everyone for a X6700h to be tested by Amir. If someone is purchasing one, maybe they could let him borrow it.

 

[lashto]

The receiver you're looking for already exists: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...anthem-mrx1120-home-theater-avr-review.11911/

The Anthem MRX1120 measured very well, has excellent room correction and is rumoured to have HDMI 2.1 coming this year.

Thought about that one but:
- very hard to get in EU and even more expensive.
- already a 4-5 years old model IIRC. Yes it seems to have a solid and well-though design but 5 years is too long IMHO. It's not a 'simple' amp that could be good for 30 years.
Maybe if they release a true 2020 model...

 

[IslandMD]

Thought about that one but:
- very hard to get in EU and even more expensive.
- already a 4-5 years old model IIRC. Yes it seems to have a solid and well-though design but 5 years is too long IMHO. It's not a 'simple' amp that could be good for 30 years.
Maybe if they release a true 2020 model...

Yes, this is a boutique brand with a longer product cycle. However, it looks like HDMI 2.1 versions are coming soon. Images were leaked on AVS Forum but I haven't seen an official announcement yet.

This Canadian company makes seriously good products with a focus on excellent sound. Also, ARC Genesis room correction seems to be a step up from Audyssey. I've seen favourable comparisons to Dirac.

I'm in the same boat as some of you here. I've got an aging Denon 4311 and I think it's time to move into the 4K and Atmos world. I've already got my Atmos 7.2.4 speaker set up but I'm waiting for a proper HDMI 2.1 AVR and a reasonably priced 4K projector that will do Dynamic HDR (among other things). Why does it seem to be taking so long to get all of this new tech developed? The name of the game here seems to be patience and delayed gratification.

 

[lashto]

Not sure what the fuss is all about. So, the noise floor is worse than a previous model. It's a Denon. It's a consumer-grade AVR that meets its rated power and has low THD. If your speakers have typical sensitivity, and you're not sticking your ear up to the tweeter, can you really tell the difference?
This is like complaining to Toyota that the latest Camry can only do 0-60 in 9 seconds, whereas last year it was 8.7 seconds.

Yes we can all hear -40dB distortion. Even in that best case scenario of super sensitive amps/speakers at low volume. And let's not forget that x4700 is an AVR. The main usecase is not quiet music but really LOUD movies with giant explosions and DR levels above any music.

Your car analogy could be useful but it's off by a few levels of magnitude. x3600 was in the 100dB distortion range, the x4700 is in the 40-70dB range. That is hundreds of times worse!

'fixed' that for you:
"This is like complaining to Toyota that the latest Camry can only do 0-60 in 30 minutes, whereas last year it was 8.7 seconds."

Can we all agree now that calling the 'latest Camry' _trash_ is quite fair and well deserved?!

 

[beefkabob]

I have already brought the unit down to pack and ship. My back is killing me and I can't lift heavy things back and forth anymore (had to get my wife to carry it down). I don't know that I can add a ton of value with listening test anyway given the effort.

Time to call your doctor and get physical therapy. Back surgery is a last resort.

 

[lashto]

Yes, this is a boutique brand with a longer product cycle. However, it looks like HDMI 2.1 versions are coming soon. Images were leaked on AVS Forum but I haven't seen an official announcement yet.

This Canadian company makes seriously good products with a focus on excellent sound. Also, ARC Genesis room correction seems to be a step up from Audyssey. I've seen favourable comparisons to Dirac.

I'm in the same boat as some of you here. I've got an aging Denon 4311 and I think it's time to move into the 4K and Atmos world. I've already got my Atmos 7.2.4 speaker set up but I'm waiting for a proper HDMI 2.1 AVR and a reasonably priced 4K projector that will do Dynamic HDR (among other things). Why does it seem to be taking so long to get all of this new tech developed? The name of the game here seems to be patience and delayed gratification.

Anthem is still in my "could be" basket. But after hoping for NAD, hoping for Arcam, hoping for Denon/Marantz, hoping for Emotiva, hoping for XYZ and seeing how all those things measure like it's 1970, my optimism is at an all-time-low level. Probably not so hard to read that in my messages

And yes, almost 100% same boat here, want to upgrade pre-4K AVR. But the more I read/know, the worse it looks. Measurements are ouch, hdmi2.1 chips are ouch (and will probably be replaced by 3.0 very soon and never updated), prices are up, inventories are low .. and extra bonus, youtube 'reviewers' are yelling at all-time max.

As others have pointed, this is just an AVR. And I simply want to put my money into a device that says "made by engineers" and not "sold by youtube marketing trumpets".
Why does it have to be so incredibly hard ?!?!

 

[wask]

[QUOTE = "GAmbrose, publicación: 440884, miembro: 17246"] El problema es con Denon, nunca parecen decirle cuáles son las actualizaciones en línea.

¿Sería esto suficiente para garantizar una nueva prueba, por ejemplo? [/ QUOTE]

https://denon-uk.custhelp.com/app/a...latest-heos-app-and-firmware-update-available

 

[kokishin]

Response from Denon's support:

"A recent review was brought to the attention of Denon wherein the reviewer contrasted the performance of two Denon products—the Denon AVR-X3600H and the recently announced AVR-X4700H—against one another. The reviewer offered a variety of bench test results, the subsequent conclusion was not favorable towards the new AVR-X4700H. Denon engineering is currently recreating testing completed by the reviewer in discussion. While there are many unknowns as it pertains to testing criteria, we expect to have our own results available to the public the week of June 29. Before any Denon product is introduced to the market, it undergoes tens of thousands of tests ensuring the absolute best quality product. Denon unequivocally stands by its standards of excellence and strictly adheres to industry best practices. Denon will be in contact with the reviewer to ensure we’re all operating against a set of standardized conditions to guarantee consistency and clarity moving forward. "

jdsmoothie over at avsform.com got the exact same reply from Denon: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-r...s-thread-faq-posts-1-8-a-36.html#post59863376

 

[UplandShadows77]

Firmware update View attachment 70770

Hello all, I just joined and have a x4700H atm. @Sanctum OF Bass do you hear any differences in sound after this update? I'm at work atm and can't update mine until later tonight.

 

[lashto]

I just want to make a quick comment here if I may.

I think Amir and the membership should generally cut the manufacturers a little bit of slack in responding to reviews. This review was published just a week ago and Denon has, through multiple channels, said they are going to look into it. Still we already have posts here saying the company is trash, an embarrassment, they dropped the ball, etc. Likely similar tone being used on other forums as well.

It may be a bit too demanding to expect that they immediately defend themselves. These companies likely only have a small handful of engineers capable of responding to this detailed review. I suspect these guys keep too busy to drop stuff on their plates and respond to negative reviews right away. The ongoing pandemic possibly exacerbates that situation due to illness, layoffs and furloughs.

Yes, I'm one of those who called x4700 trash. But only x4700! Not Denon the company (yet). Not Denon engineers (ever). Still waiting for the measurements on some of those .
And btw, since you dislike 'trash', what's your word for a headless-panther? Would you prefer 'corpse'?

@peng also pointed previously that I was not being 100% completely fair. Fair point and I agreed with him. Also agree with most of what you wrote. But I have the same question for you: what did Denon do (lately) to deserve that kind of 100% 'fair'?!

 

[lashto]

And to be even more clear about that 'trash'.

Denon engineers are NOT trash. No one said that (AFAIK). They gave us x3600 and many other good devices. Some of us enjoy their older devices. Myself included!
Denon engineers are Good (at the very least some/most of them). And as a technical person I can feel for them because I know how most of the heat will (undeservedly!) be on them. I often must spend time 'fixing' whatever bean-counters broke because they have no idea about tech. Or whatever marketing and sales over-promised because well, they have a salary to justify too.

That being said, I don't think that *any* engineer worth his title will ever put a disaster like x4700 on the market. And no engineer will brazenly ask $1700 for it either. (just a metaphor, no engineer in such a large company has to do with sale prices).
AFAICS, the x4700 'corpse' was NOT put on sale by engineers. That was (most probably) done by clueless and heartless bean-counters, cost-cutters, management, marketing, sales, etc...
This device was put on market by Greed not by engineers. It'll be great to see those 'deciders' rushing to solve the problems now. But as usual, most of them will now hide behind "the engineers", although they never used to listen to those engineers. Beautiful, fair world isn't it?

... or maybe I am just too upset to be fair. A good whisky and some music will cure that

 

[enormity32]

I'd look for a restored classic Carver amp. There is a site dedicated to this. It's what I just did and couldn't be happier. Now...if we can get some decent measured AVR's, I'll upgrade that as well.

Funny you mention Carver. The reason I bought my AVR-X4700H was because it had a pre-amp mode. I planned on using it with my Sunfire Theater Grand TGA-7400 (7x400wpc) amp. I'm a huge Bob Carver fan.