Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[rccarguy]

For those few who are inquiring about 0dB on their AVR. Besides watching movies, Mrs K and I listen to a lot of music especially 5.1 surround sound and a few Dolby Atmos music titles that have become available such as The Beatles' Abbey Road BD or R.E.M.'s Automatic For The People BD. As Amir pointed out, there is no specified reference level for music, only movies.

I never need to turn my AVR MV to 0dB because it's too loud for our ears. However, I have tried it and I don't hear any distortion. The key is to calibrate such that 0dB MV is equivalent to 75dB SPL at the MLP which is the reference for HT movies.

With much appreciated guidance from @Srrndhound (Roger Dressler on avsforum where I originally posted this). I calibrated my HT setup as follows:

Using this SPL meter I purchased on amazon (no longer available but you can find similar models): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003ZQDEV8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
1) Set the SPL meter to C weighting and SLOW response.
2) Hold the SPL meter pointing at the ceiling at ear level at the Main Listening Position.
3) Set the Master Volume on the AVR to 0dB.
4) Using the AVR's internal test tones, adjust the SPL of each speaker to 75dB.
5) After setting the SPL for all 9 speakers (in my case) and Sub to 75dB, i verified the SPL's with the Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark rev2 disc. Of course, it does not provide test tones for the Atmos speakers.
6) As a second check, I used the 2015 Dolby Demo disc and measured that it's test tones were recorded 10dB higher (per Roger) than the Spears & Munsil disc for all speakers.

Low frequencies accuracy may be out compared to the 9.0 speakers so 75db may not be correct for the sub.

 

[Vindermere]

I can understand why you might feel that way. Unfortunately Sound United and Denon folks cannot come on here to begin a dialogue. I explained why I had such a visceral response to Amir trashing Denon. Sincerely I regret attacking Amir's credibility. It was an emotional response. We all have them from time to time. That passion can work for you and against you at times. I readily admit my shortcomings.

I don't understand your attitude. I had several denon receivers and stereo amps as you but if the product is bad I would be angry at the brand and not the tester who does his job honestly

 

[rccarguy]

I don't understand your attitude. I had several denon receivers and stereo amps as you but if the product is bad I would be angry at the brand and not the tester who does his job honestly

Yup don't shoot the messenger.

 

[tecnogadget]

Desperate for something to take HDMI inputs and measure well, that has current version Dirac included. Even 7 channels would suffice. Ideas??

I feel you broo, and hope such device comes up in the near future at a reasonable price.
I currently can’t finish the setup I envisioned because the AVR or “black box” with Dirac Bass Control (aka mini DSP), reasonable priced with transparent measurements, does not exist yet

 

[peanuts]

ASR seems to be on a crusade to thrash as much gear as possible using an Audio Precision. If it's not a $20 USB dongle, it's likely not going to get a glowing review from them.

lol wut? i will never take their advice again.

 

[kokishin]

lol wut? i will never take their advice again.

Please don't post something completely out of context by partially quoting my post. My post was about Audioholics criticizing ASR in the AH youtube channel comments.

From my post https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...00h-2020-avr-review.14188/page-24#post-436638
Audioholics reply seems harsh and uncalled for: "ASR seems to be on a crusade to thrash as much gear as possible using an Audio Precision. If it's not a $20 USB dongle, it's likely not going to get a glowing review from them."

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Yes, -0 MV from reference. Do you hear that with any speaker? A good AVR should get to 0 without much fuss.

There is no audible noise difference between -20dB and 0dB on my Denon X4500H.

Well "any" speaker is cute, I only have one set at home.
While the question is purely academic as far as normal music or movies are concerned, I run into this noise related issue when amplifying the CFX concert Grand VST (has a notoriously low level that one). So I was curious whether it got better on more recent AVR models.
I hope to get around my particular issue once I replace my soundcard with an ADI-2-DAC as a pre amp.

 

[Thomas savage]

Please don't post something completely out of context by partially quoting my post. My post was about Audioholics criticizing ASR in the AH youtube channel comments.

From my post https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...00h-2020-avr-review.14188/page-24#post-436638
Audioholics reply seems harsh and uncalled for: "ASR seems to be on a crusade to thrash as much gear as possible using an Audio Precision. If it's not a $20 USB dongle, it's likely not going to get a glowing review from them."

I think your actually both on the same side here , peanuts was expressing surprise at audioholics attitude as you have done .

 

[kokishin]

I think your actually both on the same side here , peanuts was expressing surprise at audioholics attitude as you have done .

Thanks for pointing that out. A casual reader of peanuts' post, without the appropriate context, might think I was criticizing Amir's testing as opposed to someone at AH who made that comment.

 

[peng]

To be fair, it might have been just some sarcastic, or tongue in cheek moment..., hope it won't get worse if both sides would stick to facts and figures only and nobody stir things up further. I assume quite a few of us here frequent both sites and have a lot respect for both.

 

[rccarguy]

When people are talking about noise I assume background hiss? I get some on power amps on, with av pre off

 

[RichB]

I didn't realise that, I had read somewhere that the Denon Roon Tested was via Airplay or USB, but it may not have meant both on their AVR's.

https://roonlabs.com/partners/denon

That link says "via network or USB".

But it's clarified in this one:
https://denon-uk.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/7213/~/denon-+-roon

Well I guess I'm back to using HDMI for Roon (without DSD support) until I buy a DAC/endpoint .

It is fairly easy to get a Raspberry PI and load RoPieee or Volumio (both free) to create a Roon endpoint.
I had a hard time identifying the DAC to enable it and RoPieee has a wireless issue that crashed my network.
After that, I went with Volumio rather than debug it.

- Rich

 

[tparm]

So, while at, my addiction took over and I quickly pursued this thread. I didn't see this question raised but perhaps I missed it; anyone here with an engineering or electrical clock background think this HDMI performance can be cleaned up with a firmware update? Unless I missed something, which is possible, Emotiva responded to similar issues with their processor line and the results were significantly improved.

Now, I know the response would be speculation and I also know Sound United would have to care and provide said update, but I am curious.

What about hot-rodding these things? I love the idea of pre-amp mode and discrete sub outs, but I really don't care about 8k-ready HDMI port(s). In my case I'd likely buy an X3700 and not X4700 to prevent extra possible noise from Auro, but I have a shop that modifies and restores old amplifiers and audio gear, would be cool to remove the new HDMI board and replace it with the X3600 one. As I typed that I realized how silly it sounds...

All this is moot if the X3600 I have reserved actually is delivered to the store. Apparently there were a few back-ordered and Denon says the order will be filled.

 

[Mocs123]

Anyone know when the X8700 is coming? They didn’t mention it in the press release, so probably not until November. Maybe someone with a direct relationship with the CEO of Sound United could get an official release date, but I doubt someone like that would be perusing this thread.

From my understanding there will be no 8700, but there is an HDMI 2.1 board upgrade that they will offer for the 8500 that basically brings it up to the same specs as a 8700 would be.

 

[polmuaddib]

I'm still so miserable with disappointment about Amir's pre-pro tests, that I can barely lift my sad depressed eyes to read this one. OK I made myself do it. Aargh! Whyyyyy?

Desperate for something to take HDMI inputs and measure well, that has current version Dirac included. Even 7 channels would suffice. Ideas??

Denon used to make real AV beasts more then a decade ago. Might be very cheap now or not. But how they measure, i am not sure.
There's a measurement from Audioholics, but it's not the exact way of measuring as Amir's. Or i can't read it properly. If you can make out what's what, here...
https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/denon-avp-a1hdci/measurements-analysis
That denon AVP-a1hd has hdmi 1.3a, so it's not that old. If i didn't care for height channels, i would take that. It's true balanced operation.

 

[Mocs123]

One of the things I have always apprciated about reviews on this forum is that they are objective data based and not subjective. Amirm doesn't discriminate, and I think I've seen him post negative reviews about just every brand. The only two "positive" AVR reviews I remember were the Denon 3600 and the Anthem 1120, so it's hard to say he's got an agenda against Denon! Though perhaps it's the designers of the Audio Precision test equipment that have a bias against Denon!!!

 

[Newman]

Denon used to make real AV beasts more then a decade ago. Might be very cheap now or not. But how they measure, i am not sure.
There's a measurement from Audioholics, but it's not the exact way of measuring as Amir's. Or i can't read it properly. If you can make out what's what, here...
https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/denon-avp-a1hdci/measurements-analysis
That denon AVP-a1hd has hdmi 1.3a, so it's not that old. If i didn't care for height channels, i would take that. It's true balanced operation.

I would be tempted if it had latest (or upgradable) Dirac.

 

[polmuaddib]

I would be tempted if it had latest (or upgradable) Dirac.

Forgot about Dirac, sorry.
But I believe that in the high end AV segment they should again make monster recievers and prepros with upradable HDMI boards. Or some i2s input or whatever master I/O interface, where you would hook up HDMI separate component with it's chips, dsp and all. 13.4 channels is more then enough for home use to last for 10 or more years, so that could stay the same. You only buy new HDMI every 3 or 4 years with new codecs. It would change the market. If enough people cared, of course.

 

[peng]

From my understanding there will be no 8700, but there is an HDMI 2.1 board upgrade that they will offer for the 8500 that basically brings it up to the same specs as a 8700 would be.

I guess there will be something like a 8700 and 8013, but probably in 2021.

 

[Baff]

I guess there will be something like a 8700 and 8013, but probably in 2021.

The 2 flagship models this year will be the 8500HA and the 110th Anniversary Edition (which will be based on the 8500HA, in September).

The 100th Anniversary Edition (A100, in 2010) cost about $500 more than the standard flagship model (4311ci) and had these extra features:
- Gloss Finish
- 100th Anniversary badge
- 100th Anniversary block condensers
- Gold plated terminals
- Premium upgraded speaker binding posts
- Cast iron feet
- A different pattern for the top vents
- 5 year warranty
- Brand history book
- Inspection sheet
- fancy box
In terms of processing / amps / internals they were otherwise identical.

The next all new flagship model is expected in 2022.