Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[amirm]

It is not the first time Gene has said that about my testing. It is disappointing.

While he has an Audio Precision analyzer, it is a multichannel one built to lower performance. So he can't accurately replicate my test results.

He also hardly does any testing other than power and an FFT here and there.

Finally, he does have much lower standards than me. He considers a 90 dB SINAD great and that is that. His standards are the reason these products don't perform any better. Had he tested state-of-the-art audio products with a better analyzer, he would have a different outlook on great engineering.

Anyway, let's hope Denon is not pushing him to get some counter PR for him instead of working with us to sort through this.

 

[amirm]

And oh, I would hate to be in his shoes right now. Having to do testing to potentially shine a negative light on Denon after them giving him an exclusive on the announcement of their product. The conflict of interest there couldn't be stronger.

He should have asked for a unit to test prior to accepting to promote the new line so heavily as he did. I know that is what I would have done.

 

[amirm]

@SDX9000 I've read some of his test reports on dacs and don't agree with his test methods. I also know the engineers that design Denon gear and the 4700h is not a downgrade to the 3600h.

What a strange argument on Gene's part. He knows the people and that means this and that? I know the people at Harman, including founder of Arcam. That didn't stop me from finding horrible performance in their products. We test because it matters. If all that mattered was who was behind a design, why bother testing?

 

[dc655321]

What a strange argument on Gene's part. He knows the people and that means this and that? I know the people at Harman, including founder of Arcam. That didn't stop me from finding horrible performance in their products. We test because it matters. If all that mattered was who was behind a design, why bother testing?

Advertising is a helluva drug...

 

[carlob]

Noted, and as Amir pointed out, high noise (noisier than his famous reference dongle) was the issue and it may not matter which inputs/outputs were used. THD alone was at -100 dB, that's not bad at all, so the 8K HDMI 2.1 board may be the one part that generated much higher noise level than the 4K HDMI 2.0 board.

I don't think there are fundamental differences between the HDMI 2.1 and the HDMI 2.0 board except for the chip. Denon used a Panasonic chip for 4k and I think now is using the Invecas INV4781 chip as Lyngdorf and most AVR manufacturers will do in the new 8k products.

At the end of the day AVRs functions are mostly in silicon, engineers just select and put the chips together. I don't mean to offend anybody but it is not really this arduous engineering

 

[amirm]

New term (I believe): Shillster (from the English: shill + tester).

I don't think he is that bad. I encourage more testing so let's see what he comes up with.

 

[RichB]

And oh, I would hate to be in his shoes right now. Having to do testing to potentially shine a negative light on Denon after them giving him an exclusive on the announcement of their product. The conflict of interest there couldn't be stronger.

He should have asked for a unit to test prior to accepting to promote the new line so heavily as he did. I know that is what I would have done.

Audioholics
18 hours ago
@SDX9000 I've read some of his test reports on dacs and don't agree with his test methods. I also know the engineers that design Denon gear and the 4700h is not a downgrade to the 3600h. When I get caught up I will measure and review and newer Denon receiver to illustrate that.

Someone got caught up in the moment.
Conclusion before measurement is not good methodology.

- Rich

 

[carlob]

Conclusion before measurement is not good methodology.

Gene has a big problem now because if the other new Denons measure bad like this one what the poor guy is gonna do?

 

[peng]

Gene has a big problem now because if the other new Denons measure bad like this one what the poor guy is gonna do?

I think he would let Denon know and push for improvement. He did that with Yamaha before iirc.

 

[Todd74]

Good engineering can require more time , more research and more development of the product. Costs increase with all three.

Theoretically, good engineering, as a product of better engineers, should result in increased efficiency [less time, not more], better reliability [reduced repair costs], and improved product reputation [increased sales].
I doubt that Kia and Hyundai needed to employ Ferrari engineers in order to make a reliable vehicle.

 

[Dj7675]

New term (I believe): Shillster (from the English: shill + tester).

I think this is off base. His standards are lower than here as it appears that what he believes is audible is different, but he has tested a lot of gear and is one of the few places still testing ear with objective measurements. They may not be as complete as ASR but shill is off base in my opinion.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

It is not the first time Gene has said that about my testing. It is disappointing.

While he has an Audio Precision analyzer, it is a multichannel one built to lower performance. So he can't accurately replicate my test results.

He also hardly does any testing other than power and an FFT here and there.

Finally, he does have much lower standards than me. He considers a 90 dB SINAD great and that is that. His standards are the reason these products don't perform any better. Had he tested state-of-the-art audio products with a better analyzer, he would have a different outlook on great engineering.

Anyway, let's hope Denon is not pushing him to get some counter PR for him instead of working with us to sort through this.

Good day to you Amir. Suggesting Gene has ulterior motives and is being used by Denon PR is not what I would have expected from you honestly especially given the recent falsehoods I attributed to your own motivations. I can understand being frustrated with the comments made by Gene about your testing methods. It would have been more constructive and opened the lines of communication by reaching out to him. Don't make the same mistakes I made. You seem to have a well established reputation for decency and honesty. You are better than me.

 

[RichB]

I think this is off base. His standards are lower than here as it appears that what he believes is audible is different, but he has tested a lot of gear and is one of the few places still testing ear with objective measurements. They may not be as complete as ASR but shill is off base in my opinion.

I agree.

- Rich

P.S. I have two testing ears

 

[Skylarlove1999]

Theoretically, good engineering, as a product of better engineers, should result in increased efficiency [less time, not more], better reliability [reduced repair costs], and improved product reputation [increased sales].
I doubt that Kia and Hyundai needed to employ Ferrari engineers in order to make a reliable vehicle.

I have tried to ignore you but seriously what is your deal. You seem to want my attention by your sarcastic tone and general attitude. So what exactly do you want? Do you need a hug?

 

[carlob]

Good day to you Amir. Suggesting Gene has ulterior motives and is being used by Denon PR is not what I would have expected from you honestly especially given the recent falsehoods I attributed to your own motivations. I can understand being frustrated with the comments made by Gene about your testing methods. It would have been more constructive and opened the lines of communication by reaching out to him. Don't make the same mistakes I made. You seem to have a well established reputation for decency and honesty. You are better than me.

I have this gut feeling that you just changed your trolling methodology but maybe I'm wrong

 

[kokishin]

I think this is off base. His standards are lower than here as it appears that what he believes is audible is different, but he has tested a lot of gear and is one of the few places still testing ear with objective measurements. They may not be as complete as ASR but shill is off base in my opinion.

Fair enough. It was meant as a joke. Nevertheless, I'll delete my post. HST, I think the official comments from AH on their youtube channel about Amir were way out of line.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

I have this gut feeling that you just changed your trolling methodology but maybe I'm wrong

I can understand why you would say that. I deserve that comment. Only time will see if you change your impression. You certainly are entitled to feel that way after the way I acted.

 

[Todd74]

I have tried to ignore you but seriously what is your deal. You seem to want my attention by your sarcastic tone and general attitude. So what exactly do you want? Do you need a hug?

So your reply is to not respond to the engineering points I mentioned in my post?

No, no hug wanted from you, sorry. I feel like you’d mess up something in the relay portion of the hug that leaves the results disappointing.

 

[amirm]

Good day to you Amir. Suggesting Gene has ulterior motives and is being used by Denon PR is not what I would have expected from you honestly especially given the recent falsehoods I attributed to your own motivations. I can understand being frustrated with the comments made by Gene about your testing methods. It would have been more constructive and opened the lines of communication by reaching out to him. Don't make the same mistakes I made. You seem to have a well established reputation for decency and honesty. You are better than me.

I am not "frustrated" by his comments. Please don't try to be too clever with these debating tactics. It doesn't work with me. Ditto for the rest of your "advice."

It would be natural for Denon to reach out to Gene to counter my review. They have a good relationship with him and likely will lean on him hard to do this. What that pressure does to Gene, is something I don't know. But I can observe this fact as I did in my post.

My hope, and I thought was yours, was that Denon would instead come to me with their own measurements and we could figure out together what is going on. Creating a public battle between any measurements Gene would perform and mine is not a constructive way forward.

But as I said, I welcome Gene's testing. He should have done it before the press event but it is still not too late.

Your job was to reach out to your CEO friend and ask him to collaborate with us to figure this thing out. They don't need a PR answer. They either have issues or they don't. If they don't, I will be 100% behind them in correcting any mistakes in my measurements. They don't need Gene for that.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

So your reply is to not respond to the engineering points I mentioned in my post?

No, no hug wanted from you, sorry. I feel like you’d mess up something in the relay portion of the hug that leaves the results disappointing.

I agree with your common sense commentary. I would not call them engineering points. LOL. BTW thanks for continuing to be the same vile person when I sent you a private message to try to get beyond this hatred you have for me. I tried to settle things with you in private as to keep you from muddying up this thread. If you are so angry for my having done so why would you continue doing it yourself after being admonished twice already by the moderator to disengage from your incessant attacks against me. Clearly you are a hypocrite. Plain and simple.