Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[SimpleTheater]

My bigger concern is that too many seemingly competing companies belong to the same holding, reducing real competition much more than one thinks.

The smaller boutique brands (e. B&K) have gone out of business or left the market (e.g Adcom), mostly because you need an expensive team of people to implement the “stickers” so many consumers care about. Each sticker costs money to design the functionality and royalty to the patent holder. Just look at the issues Emotiva is having with implementing Dirac.

I’m believe there is a market for a “sport” series of AVRs [think of the Honda Civic Type R or the Toyota Camry TRD), where you pay for performance but get less features. And I don’t think it would be overly expensive to implement.

Take a Yamaha RX-A3080 for example. It costs $2,199. Jack the price to $2,999 and remove: MusicCast, DTS-X, 3 HDMI inputs, multi-zones, Bluetooth, Airplay, Voice control). Then make some improvements to the DAC, better amplification and, just like Epson does with their pro-series projectors, QC important parts for variance in production and hand pick the best performing units for this product.

Edit: I almost forgot the most important part. The new name is “RX-A3080 Premium”

 

[Spocko]

Now to be real this is going to happen only with small manufacturers. Big corporations don't work that way and don't have that level of flexibility. I know how big corporations work. To have one engineer out of the hundreds they have in a group to discuss the tech details of a product review in public on a forum will need so many levels of internal steps and authorizations that's just unthinkable. I would be pretty surprised otherways but that's just not going to happen. Maybe in private. Maybe in a official statement on their site with the wording being carefully checked by lawyers, marketing etc.

But it would be enough for me if they read, go back to work and silently improve their stuff, that's what I think we all hope.

Surprisingly, Gene Dellasala of Audioholics has mentioned often that some big makers like Yamaha are very responsive to public criticism of inaccurate measurements and admit when there are problems. For example, check out this recent review of the Yamaha Aventage 5200 where he called out Yamaha on unexpected distortion: https://bit.ly/3fKGKBI

Yamaha confirmed my measurements and discovered the culprit to this increased distortion had something to do with how the volume control IC interacts with the XLR outputs. This is something they plan to resolve in future models but cannot make a hardware change to this current model.​

Like Amir, Gene has an engineering background and his reviews are heavily reliant on measurements using the Audio Precision APx585 8 Channel HDMI Audio Analyzer. He's definitely ASR material at heart, and makes every attempt to reach out to manufacturers demanding explanations when they exaggerate with their marketing hyperbole.

It appears that Gene and Amir are actually establishing a whole new level of consumer accountability that separates responsive brands like Yamaha and Emotiva, from the "big corporations" that are left wondering why their marketing department can't fix things like they used to.

 

[LTig]

The issue is not about software but hardware implantation

We don't know this yet. And even if it is hardware: as long as it's on the digital side a firmware fix may be possible (reprogramming an FPGA).

 

[carlob]

Surprisingly, Gene Dellasala of Audioholics has mentioned often that some big makers like Yamaha are very responsive to public criticism of inaccurate measurements and admit when there are problems. For example, check out this recent review of the Yamaha Aventage 5200 where he called out Yamaha on unexpected distortion: https://bit.ly/3fKGKBI

Yamaha confirmed my measurements and discovered the culprit to this increased distortion had something to do with how the volume control IC interacts with the XLR outputs. This is something they plan to resolve in future models but cannot make a hardware change to this current model.​

Like Amir, Gene has an engineering background and his reviews are heavily reliant on measurements using the Audio Precision APx585 8 Channel HDMI Audio Analyzer. He's definitely ASR material at heart, and makes every attempt to reach out to manufacturers demanding explanations when they exaggerate with their marketing hyperbole.

It appears that Gene and Amir are actually establishing a whole new level of consumer accountability that separates responsive brands like Yamaha and Emotiva, from the "big corporations" that are left wondering why their marketing department can't fix things like they used to.

That's great, and that happened in private right? No Yamaha engineer popping in the forum to discuss the volume control IC in public.
I mean, it's not in contradiction with what I said: don't expect that somebody from a big manufacturer will discuss issues in public on the forum like Emotiva did here. Emotiva did because they are a small manufacturer and miss all the layers of complexity a big brand has. If Denon is willing to discuss ASR review they will do in private, don't expect Denon head of AVR engineering to make an account here and take questions

 

[Skylarlove1999]

Actually, I know you're new, but if you read many of the review threads, guess what? The smaller manufacturers are incredibly responsive and have reached out directly to ASR to investigate the problem! Case in point: Emotiva $5,000 RMC-1 processor received a headless panther review https://bit.ly/3ehHpuo and of course Emotiva fan base lashed out, but guess what? The manufacturer was very concerned and Lonnie, the Emotiva rep, directly reached out to ASR to engage in productive conversation to explain/fix the issue, and I'll repost what Lonnie said: (my emphasis added) https://bit.ly/2YVMIcb

A big thank you Amir for retesting the RMC-1.​

I also want to thank you for bringing to our attention something we missed in our standard battery of test. It was a pleasure speaking with you and thank you again. We do strive to provide the best product possible for our customers but we are only human and do miss things, so your review was very helpful.​

My best regards,​

Lonnie​

The first ASR member responses after this statement? From AudioBliss:

What a time for AV enthusiasts. The power of forums is real! It's great to see that Emotiva took the issue seriously and fixed it so fast. Even though there is more to be fixed in the software in terms of features it does give great confidence in a manufacturer who has an online presence. I wish all AV manufacturers did that. Even though I don't own this product it does give me hope that it's actually possible to get faster feedback loops to manufacturers in the industry where action is taken.​

​

Emotiva pretty much won a whole bunch of fans that day, regardless of how badly the measurements were initially; Lonnie admitted that testing missed a few items, but also explained the reasons why some subpar measurements were simply unavoidable due to DSP noise processing at lower resolutions when active.

Do you see now, the importance of ASR? The manufacturer joined this channel with an open mind, with the possibility that maybe just maybe, they did miss something and Amir got it right. Emotiva won much respect that day.

I have seen the light. I do sincerely thank Amir and the ASR membership.

 

[dmorrow]

. . . it is important to me to build one system that performs well at everything - two channel music, surround music, movies, and games. That is my entire reason for reading here, participating here, and sending Amir two pieces of equipment so far. The AVR reviews are huge for me. I feel it's important to counter the viewpoint, expressed by someone in nearly every AVR thread on ASR, that a surround processor just needs to make noise and worrying about the numbers is pointless. I care a lot. A lot of people care a lot.

I second this concept . . . From a high end prosumer/low end audiophile standpoint I don't understand why this is too much to ask for as a product. Add in the option to turn off all but the stereo portion and a switch to bypass tone circuitry. . . it would be an ideal configuration for my needs.

Perhaps something like this already exists on the market?

 

[Skylarlove1999]

Surprisingly, Gene Dellasala of Audioholics has mentioned often that some big makers like Yamaha are very responsive to public criticism of inaccurate measurements and admit when there are problems. For example, check out this recent review of the Yamaha Aventage 5200 where he called out Yamaha on unexpected distortion: https://bit.ly/3fKGKBI

Yamaha confirmed my measurements and discovered the culprit to this increased distortion had something to do with how the volume control IC interacts with the XLR outputs. This is something they plan to resolve in future models but cannot make a hardware change to this current model.​

Like Amir, Gene has an engineering background and his reviews are heavily reliant on measurements using the Audio Precision APx585 8 Channel HDMI Audio Analyzer. He's definitely ASR material at heart, and makes every attempt to reach out to manufacturers demanding explanations when they exaggerate with their marketing hyperbole.

It appears that Gene and Amir are actually establishing a whole new level of consumer accountability that separates responsive brands like Yamaha and Emotiva, from the "big corporations" that are left wondering why their marketing department can't fix things like they used to.

Gene does also provide his opinion on what he is hearing as well. I would like Amir to incorporate that into his reviews as well via a separate party, maybe a forum member, who listens first without reviewing any measurements. That would provide a more balanced review IMHO and could possibly provide even more weight to the measurements if the shortcomings in measurements are also confirmed by what an independent party is hearing. Hell maybe have Gene and Amir collaborate. Gene could do the listening and Amir take the measurements and publish blindly on the same day. Although Gene would want to do the measurements himself. LOL.

 

[jaatre]

Was it the same volume setting or did you measure the output level with a voltmeter or another suitable instrument?

It was the same volume level and stereo mode. I had my friends as measuring instruments.

Each of my 3 friends were asked to listen to their favourite songs with closed eyes and write down (on a slip) which try was the best to their liking. They're not aware of AVRs or any modes in them, so no biases there.

Surprisingly they all preferred what they heard when I was streaming through in-built apps against YouTube over HDMI.

If it's YouTube compression that's causing this, then we need to figure out a better way to watch music videos!

 

[jaatre]

Yes.

Thanks for the clarification

 

[Promit]

Hmm...
To be perfectly honest? I have yet to be impressed by surround sound.
My friend built a nice surround system using speakers from Focal's Aria line for all channels. While the speakers sound fantastic in a 2.0 setting, in movies, the rears are barely active. Yeah sure you get the odd bullet impact or the mandatory helicopter flying above your head but that's pretty much it. 90% of the movie it's just the center speaker blaring at you. "Gimmicky" is precisely the term I would use for most movies.

I one hundred percent appreciate why some people feel this way, and I don’t need to change your mind or criticize your friend’s system. I usually suggest that people don’t go out and get expensive speakers for their surrounds. Heck, most movie content is heavily in the center channel because, surprise surprise, that’s where the movie is happening. It’s less surround than music!

I recently upgraded my 5.1 rear channels from very cheap (SVS satellites) to pretty cheap (Monitor Audio Bronze). This was for purely aesthetic reasons but I was surprised to find that I did actually notice a change for the better. However this change is 10x more significant and noticeable for games (60-70% of my HT usage), which makes sense because unlike a movie, a game is happening all around you.

Do I need more than like 70 dB of SINAD and maybe 20W out of those surrounds? Almost certainly not. My dad, who has a whole collection of surround mastered SACDs, might disagree. Both of us are still better off understanding the objective compromises being made, and all of us are better off by pushing the AVR manufacturers to pay attention to fundamental performance metrics. Especially because I do want to be able to shut off that game and enjoy excellent two channel performance, and these AVRs designs are all symmetric.

 

[raistlin65]

I would like Amir to incorporate that into his reviews as well via a separate party, maybe a forum member, who listens first without reviewing any measurements.

You know that's asking a lot?

Amir has a testbench for the AVR to conduct his measurements. The testing you want would involve moving the AVR to his personal listening room, disconnecting his usual equipment, and setting up the AVR. So extra time and effort. And he has a bad back. Perhaps you would like to donate money for a helper?

And then, what do you want him to listen for? A comparison with another AVR? That's a lot of work to setup a proper double-blind test.

Or are you hoping for a description of the sound attributes, the character of the receiver, like some kind of Stereophile or What-Fi review? If it's just whether or not it can drive a set of speakers that he owns, I'm sure he can tell you that based on the measurements alone.

 

[carlob]

Like Amir, Gene has an engineering background and his reviews are heavily reliant on measurements using the Audio Precision APx585 8 Channel HDMI Audio Analyzer.

To be honest Gene could use that APx585 a little bit more but in any case better than nothing.

 

[Archaea]

Also we now have a market in which companies to substain their business model need you to upgrade every year pushing new useless features like 8k, we don't yet have widespread 4k, or absurd multichannel audio systems. Now 13 channels in a future who knows 25 channels, 100 channels, you will need to drill so many holes in your living that will resemble an emmenthal wheel of cheese. Most of the world lives in 70sq meters. This is just crazy. The industry needs a sanity check, back to sound engineering practices and features that are actually useful for normal people.

I don't agree here. The industry is moving forward. If you don't want to participate in new product offerings like HDMI 2.1 which offers tremendous improvements for gamers with 4K 120Hz VRR capability or 13 channel speaker setups (which should have been the standard (IMO) instead of 11 because of the symmetry it offers), then feel free not to move to new technology forward beyond your own comfort level; but to say the industry should stymie on what you personally think is overkill makes no sense.

I think 13 channels is sufficient, I won't be adding more to my own personal home theater, and I look forward to buying a product that truly supports 13 channels, (which is why I'm here to hopefully learn more about the abilities of the big brother x6700h). Even though I personally think 13 is all that is reasonable, I don't oppose the industry or more motivated home theater aficionados moving to 16, 20, 28, 32, speakers, etc -- Their desire to 'put more holes in the wall' than me doesn't hurt my experience in the least, so why should I care?

If the industry held to only the market's majority practical standard we'd still be on 2 channel stereo, as obviously some of the people in this thread have stated is all that is needed. That'd suck. I sure enjoy my home theater for cinema and my excessive speakers...

Is there a x6700h queued up for testing at this site? I wonder if it has the same concerns -- and I also am not knowledgeable enough to know if this concern is audible.

Year ago I went from a Onkyo TX-NR1007 to a TX-NR818, was disappointed and sold the 818 in a couple weeks because it did not sound as good as my 1007. The 818 was a lower line with newer tech(and newer Audyssey), but it did not sound as good.
I have a Denon x7200wa now, and I don't want another Onkyo 818 experience, where I fear I might buy the x6700h, and hear an audible downgrade???

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

However this change is 10x more significant and noticeable for games (60-70% of my HT usage), which makes sense because unlike a movie, a game is happening all around you.

Actually you are right. Since I inherited his old surround set of speakers (center and rears), I deliberately paid attention to what is happening OFF camera in movies.... not that much. Even if it's supposed to be some scare tactic moment, the cam usually switches to the "action" immediately, and the sound comes... out of the center.
<_<

Video games are an entirely different beast altogether. I played a small round of Rise of the Tomb Raider and the combination of HDR + Surround sound is definitely cool. I do miss clarity and definition though. A decade of headphone use took it's toll on me, esp if you game with something high end like a Focal Clear.

Keep in mind that I live in a tiny 16.5m² Apartment, so placing a surround set is a challenge, to say the least (with the strong phantom center of my Aria 906, a dedicated center speaker feels pretty pointless to be honest) and driving the necessary SPL to make movies and games actually immersive is out of the question. Oh and no sub. Watching sth like Transformers with a sub would probably mean I get torches and pitchforks thrown at me. ._.

Still, I will keep bugging my friend that I want to play a game on his system. Maybe that will finally be a surround experience that impresses me.

 

[carlob]

I don't agree here. The industry is moving forward. If you don't want to participate in new product offerings like HDMI 2.1 which offers tremendous improvements for gamers with 4K 120Hz VRR capability or 13 channel speaker setups (which should have been the standard (IMO) instead of 11 because of the symmetry it offers), then feel free not to move to new technology forward beyond your own comfort level; but to say the industry should stymie on what you personally think is overkill makes no sense.

I think 13 channels is sufficient, I won't be adding more to my own personal home theater, and I look forward to buying a product that truly supports 13 channels, (which is why I'm here to hopefully learn more about the abilities of the big brother x6700h). Even though I think 13 is all that is reasonable, I don't oppose the industry or more motivated home theater aficionados moving to 16, 20, 28, 32, speakers, etc -- Their desire to 'put more holes in the wall' than me doesn't hurt my experience in the least, so why should I care?

If the industry held to only the market's majority practical standard we'd still be on 2 channel stereo, as obviously some of the people in this thread have stated is all that is needed. That'd suck. I sure enjoy my home theater for cinema and my excessive speakers...

I am not a gamer so I could not care less, same with 32, 100, 200 speakers in a room. I think it is crazy but I don't care. You like to have 100 speakers in your room, good for you I am all for having options. What I care a lot about is that to offer all kind of bells and whistles, assuming there is a need in the market which I doubt, manufacturers are bringing to the market devices that are broken in their basic engineering. So you first fix the basics of your piece of shit device so at least it measures decent in 2 channels then add whatever channels you want, thousands of channels, gazillions of inputs, auro20D, dolby hyperround etc.

 

[polmuaddib]

13 Hours is a great mix as well if your setup is calibrated properly.

thanks, i will check it out

 

[Promit]

Keep in mind that I live in a tiny 16.5m² Apartment, so placing a surround set is a challenge, to say the least (with the strong phantom center of my Aria 906, a dedicated center speaker feels pretty pointless to be honest)

The center channel exists to root the centered dialogue/action in a wider listening space where much of the audience is significantly off axis. Most stereo systems will only create that strong phantom center if you're in a fairly small sweet spot. (I'm ignoring the controlled directivity toe-in trick here.) Theater sound, whether commercial or home, is designed around covering a larger audience and so the center channel compensates for the imaging problems at the edges. Going off the r/hometheater subreddit, some of the "the movie happens in the center channel" crowd seem to have lost track of this and believe that you always need a giant center channel, yielding some rather questionable setups. I've even seen a few people advocating for those on a budget to start with a mono system from a center channel plus receiver and add L/R later

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

The center channel exists to root the centered dialogue/action in a wider listening space where much of the audience is significantly off axis.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks. Since I work with a nearfield setup I can just unplug the center altogether.

That suggestion regarding the mono channel is hilarious though.

Edit: Quick and dirty check by setting the center in my AVR to none and using Transformers I.
Works. Optimus' voice comes directly from the TV's panel and actually sounds better due to my mains having a higher quality than the old center.

 

[carlob]

Now not only we need to put speakers everywhere, we also need to bring a bunch of people home to watch a movie. I don't know what's worse
Maybe there is a niche of HT systems for sociopaths that whatch movies alone or maybe in two people (assuming that the XXX channels people live in castles with a dedicated movie theatre)

 

[North_Sky]

I'm all in to measure all channels power, but if two channels stereo don't measure good all across (power, THD, frequency response, dynamic range, DAC, channel separation, ...), then I have zero interest beyond that.

One thing to remember too; most people with an AV receiver also use a sub or two.
So the receiver is relieved of the bass below 80Hz, in all channels.
What does it mean? It means that you don't need a mammoth receiver.
Something like the Denon 3600 is plenty enough to have fun @ the movies.

For ultra high end stereo music listening only? I know some cool audio websites with plenty of pretty gear, a pretty penny, and just on looks alone the music sounds already good.
Price of admission? Your soul, that's all. That's a small price to pay today in the world we live in.

Short of financial stimulus you can always get a stereo integrated amp for few hundreds (Yamaha) and a universal high resolution music player (everything the kitchen sink) also for few hundreds. And use that integrated amp with your Denon 3600 to power your front mains and fun hi-fi stereo music listening.

What's worth to man to have the whole world if he loses the throne?

Get the speakers first, the ones that measure good, that sound good to you, and that suit your room's acoustics. ....And MonoPrice speaker wires and HDMI connectors (graded and certified).