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Schiit Modius Balanced DAC Review

PeteL

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No AKM chip DAC has MQA. It is a licensing issue wrt to ESS if I recall right.
Not really, MQA unfolding is done pre digital to analog conversion. It has nothing to do with the dac chip. Most use a XMOS microcontroller, but I don't think it has to be XMOS. There are MQA Dacs that use a AKM chip like the topping D90 MQA version
 

bboris77

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I’m newly returning to the digital scene after several years with the same DAC. I thought I’d trip over to Super Best Audio Friends to see what they had to say about this new Schiit. Jeez! If I were from LA, I’d thought I’d worn red to a Crips party! (An American gang reference for our global friends)

They have major beef with Amir, even though he recommended the Modius. I get the whole objective vs. subjective thing, but can’t we all just get along? The Modius measures great, (likely) sounds clean, and is well-priced. What is there not to celebrate?

I agree a 100% with this. All these new DACs are great - the Modius appears amazing, and the latest few DACs from Topping (D90, D70) are awesome sounding too. I do not see the need to tear down one manufacturer's products in order to prove another manufacturer's superiority. It is very juvenile behaviour in my opinion. I have owned and still own DACs from both Topping and Schiit (and JDS Labs) and each company's products have had their strengths and weaknesses.

We are very lucky to live in a period where one can get this kind of performance for under $500. Only a few years ago, this would have been absolutely impossible. I think it now comes down to the differences in functionality between these DACs (and amplifiers), quality control/reliability, customer support and case design. Until there is another paradigm shift in how things are being measured and we all realize that we have been missing something so obvious all along. ;)
 

Angsty

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At this point, I do wonder what the point of diminishing returns is. I had been looking to acquire the Topping D90 prior to the introduction of the Modius. Modius gives me pause.

How will measurable changes 100 dB or more below the signal level meaningfully impact my enjoyment of music from these DACs? Different features do make a tangible difference (like DSD, MQA, Bluetooth), but most of my listening is PCM from cabled sources.

I appreciate the plethora of options that exist now to finely match our preferences and price sensitivities. If nothing else, this DAC “arms race” has upturned many previous dogmas about price/performance ratios.
 

Theriverlethe

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At this point, I do wonder what the point of diminishing returns is. I had been looking to acquire the Topping D90 prior to the introduction of the Modius. Modius gives me pause.

How will measurable changes 100 dB below the signal level meaningfully impact my enjoyment of music from these DACs? Different features do make a tangible difference (like DSD, MQA, Bluetooth), but most of my listening is PCM from cabled sources.

I appreciate the plethora of options that exist now to finely match our preferences and price sensitivities. If nothing else, this DAC “arms race” has upturned many previous dogmas about price/performance ratios.

It will have no effect on the auditory nerves that feed impulses to your brain, but may improve your “enjoyment” from a purely psychological standpoint.
 

solderdude

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Until there is another paradigm shift in how things are being measured and we all realize that we have been missing something so obvious all along.

This is utter nonsense.
There is only time and amplitude, in stereo for 2 channels.
Both can be measured with an accuracy far far greater than the human ear can detect.
The paradign shift needed is the realization by those that do not fully understand measurements and that hearing is particularly flawed when it comes to exact and repeatable 'measurements'.
 

bboris77

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This is utter nonsense.
There is only time and amplitude, in stereo for 2 channels.
Both can be measured with an accuracy far far greater than the human ear can detect.
The paradign shift needed is the realization by those that do not fully understand measurements and that hearing is particularly flawed when it comes to exact and repeatable 'measurements'.

It was a joke, hence a winking smiley.

EDIT: However, I recognize that in every joke, there is a grain of truth. Therefore, if you want to have a discussion about the science of measuring audio performance of a device, let's have it:

It would be ludicrous and slightly depressing to truly believe that we now know everything there is to know about the science of audio reproduction and recording. Surely there is some room for innovation and discovery left in this field. Otherwise, we can just shut down these forums and stop all discussion. The goal of transparent performance according to today's measurement standards has already been reached, so what is the point? We should just stop being enthusiastic about bringing the most realistic depiction of live sound to our living rooms, and just listen to our current devices.

"Oh well, at least we tried."

If we had this attitude towards progress as a species, we would probably still live in caves. And there's nothing wrong with that - one can live in a cave and be really happy.
 
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PeteL

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At this point, I do wonder what the point of diminishing returns is. I had been looking to acquire the Topping D90 prior to the introduction of the Modius. Modius gives me pause.
How will measurable changes 100 dB or more below the signal level meaningfully impact my enjoyment of music from these DACs? Different features do make a tangible difference (like DSD, MQA, Bluetooth), but most of my listening is PCM from cabled sources.

I appreciate the plethora of options that exist now to finely match our preferences and price sensitivities. If nothing else, this DAC “arms race” has upturned many previous dogmas about price/performance ratios.
Honestly, the 2 brands/models you mention, along with maybe RME are all great values in price/performance ratio. In the grand scheme of things those are all aggressively priced DACs that offer a lot compared to boutique/craft manufacturers, so I would think that your question are more about what features you want than a diminishing return case. You need volume control, dsd/mqa, Bluetooth, etc, D90 is worth it. You don't use those features, don't buy em. In my views, as of now RME and Schiit are the only 2 "western" manufacturers that compete in term of value with the Asian manufacturers, not that it matters, but it is harder to produce for cheap here so that's impressive to me. You might find it far fetch that I include a 1100$ dac, the rme adi-2 dac, as a value proposal, but again, it's not simply a Dac, you get a great headphone amp, you get EQ, a display, etc, so to me there is not much else that gives that much for the money so it qualifies in the bang for the bucks category, but only if you use these features, if you don't then you are paying extra for no reasons.
 

WonderBoy

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I am way too serious about this :rolleyes:
Problem is there are quite a few folks who actually think it is a real issue.
Sure, you'll see a slight blip on an 800x600 jpg chart with 2 overlayed line graphs... this, the captured sound of a twig breaking 30ft behind you and to the left 20ft VS 40ft behind you and to the left 25ft

The human brain does this with ease... dacs through up a soundstage, no? looks kinda basic on a line graph lol ;) maybe we need more advanced visualization on the data captured, GPU's are cheap -- or lets keep it simple, DACs just sound diff, it's interesting, 2 may measure seemingly the same (the woefully low-rez charts) and sound diff
 
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mhardy6647

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I am not a fan of symbols for input selection but I guess if you don't switch DACs all the time like I do, it is fine.
That's what label makers are for :cool:

1591278559511.png
 

maverickronin

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If I were from LA, I’d thought I’d worn red to a Crips party! (An American gang reference for our global friends)

Most of their core group is in SoCal too...
 

solderdude

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this, the captured sound of a twig breaking 30ft behind you and to the left 20ft VS 60ft behind you and to the left 55ft

I will bet that when you take out the tape measure you will probably be off quite a bit in the estimated distances and exact locations. That is the problem with using the ears. One thinks they know the distance and the direction but in reality you just hear the twig breaking and you look in that direction to see what it was.
Maybe some blind people will do better for obvious reasons.
 

WonderBoy

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I will bet that when you take out the tape measure you will probably be off quite a bit in the estimated distances and exact locations. That is the problem with using the ears. One thinks they know the distance and the direction but in reality you just hear the twig breaking and you look in that direction to see what it was.
Maybe some blind people will do better for obvious reasons.
Sure, but they still sound different, trying to make a point on how advanced our brains are with audio... made the locations silly close to illustrate the precision/timing going on here (functioning brain and *2* ears req)... so fine, 50ft ahead to the left, 50ft behind to the right... graph that... see my point, kinda? Same twig and it's freq response.
 
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BDWoody

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The goal of transparent performance according to today's measurement standards has already been reached, so what is the point? We should just stop being enthusiastic about bringing the most realistic depiction of live sound to our living rooms, and just listen to our current devices.

To relax and enjoy the music, without worry about what you are missing maybe...

How does reaching transparency in a DAC lower my enthusiasm? For those who want an excuse to keep buying new stuff (who doesn't like new stuff?), I can see that they might be sad about one less thing to have to buy for that next level in sound.

I'd rather spend on what might *actually* improve my sound...not just buying new stuff 'cause somebody somewhere said it was the latest and greatest.
 

bboris77

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To relax and enjoy the music, without worry about what you are missing maybe...

How does reaching transparency in a DAC lower my enthusiasm? For those who want an excuse to keep buying new stuff (who doesn't like new stuff?), I can see that they might be sad about one less thing to have to buy for that next level in sound.

I'd rather spend on what might *actually* improve my sound...not just buying new stuff 'cause somebody somewhere said it was the latest and greatest.

I was just being sarcastic, I was not really asking this question. I was trying to say that it is arrogant to think that we have reached the pinnacle of audio recording and reproduction and that we cannot improve on it, ever.

I agree with you thought that it is better to spend money on things that actually make more of a difference at this point, mainly speakers and headphones. The differences between various excellent DACs and amplifiers are very small at this point.
 

solderdude

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Sure, but they still sound different, trying to make a point on how advanced our brains are with audio... made the locations silly close to illustrate the precision/timing going on here... so fine, 50ft ahead to the left, 50ft behind to the right... graph that... see my point, kinda? Same twig.

The brain simply processes the timing differences and FR differences and uses visual clues (the surroundings) to estimate where sounds came from.
Timing differences aren't resolved that well for all frequencies and is frequency dependent.
It is very possible to measure timing differences with absolute certainty and quantity far, far beyond what the brain is capable of.

Case in point for audio... try to find differences between electronic devices when level matched while not knowing what equipment is used and repeat that trick a couple of times... then, suddenly, the things people claim they can hear so clearly suddenly vanish in thin air and aren't demonstrable anymore.
 

WonderBoy

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The brain simply processes the timing differences and FR differences and uses visual clues (the surroundings) to estimate where sounds came from.
Timing differences aren't resolved that well for all frequencies and is frequency dependent.
It is very possible to measure timing differences with absolute certainty and quantity far, far beyond what the brain is capable of.

Case in point for audio... try to find differences between electronic devices when level matched while not knowing what equipment is used and repeat that trick a couple of times... then, suddenly, the things people claim they can hear so clearly suddenly vanish in thin air and aren't demonstrable anymore.
That's what I thought I said, we have a data presentation problem, post processing problem (to present the data in an understandable way)... it's just as hard to prove 2 things sound the same.
 
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