Topping D90 Balanced USB DAC Review

[BDWoody]

The incredible thing about the entire “burn-in” argument is this: why does the sound always “improve”?

Logic dictates that if there really was some phenomenon that affected the sound quality, over the first few hours of use, for reasons unknown, then the effect of that phenomenon is just as likely to be deleterious as beneficial.

How does it know when to stop burning? Seems to be the implication is that it always settles into the exact right spot...

So, maybe these shouldn't be called 'solid state.'

It's like they are sending you a frozen pizza that just needs some time in the oven.

So much nonsense, so little time...

 

[hmscott]

The incredible thing about the entire “burn-in” argument is this: why does the sound always “improve”?

Logic dictates that if there really was some phenomenon that affected the sound quality, over the first few hours of use, for reasons unknown, then the effect of that phenomenon is just as likely to be deleterious as beneficial.

How does it know when to stop burning? Seems to be the implication is that it always settles into the exact right spot...

So, maybe these shouldn't be called 'solid state.'

It's like they are sending you a frozen pizza that just needs some time in the oven.

So much nonsense, so little time...

It's so true, so much nonsense, so much fighting against something you don't understand. Citing that which you know to be ridiculous doesn't make the subject you are ridiculing ridiculous, it's a childish argument.

The fact that you use similes instead of personal experience with the actual subject shows me you have no first hand experience with this and are reduced to subjective claims rather than data based conclusions.

Burn-in doesn't always sound better, but it's all you've got if the initial sound doesn't please your ears. I've put many items through break-in and still not been happy with the sound.

Burn-in doesn't know when to stop "burning", it's a physical process that continues until the components settle. This can happen as a permanent end, or a continual warm-up each time you power on.

Some scientific, engineering, or technical instrumentation have stable clock's at a certain temperature range which changes with ambient temperature, and without an oven to reach calibration temperature reliably cheap instruments need longer to warm up before they are usable for measurements.

I've had unstable DAC's that I shoot with freeze mist and then they firm right up. An extreme case to be sure, but try hitting one with a heat gun and freeze mist in the right range to reach a temperature, or use an oven to hold the assemblage to test the range of operation. Have you ever done that? I have

If you haven't done the simple tests and experiments to try it out for yourself, don't belittle that which you don't have any experience in investigating.

It's really not difficult to hold both concepts in the human brain, scientific measurements - which ones matter for one thing, do you know? - and hearing it - with your own ears - and seeing it - with your own eyes.

As a wise man once said, don't miss the forest for the tree's.

It's not a bad place to be in, not knowing, but it's a good place to move from - not get stuck in.

 

[BDWoody]

An extreme case to be sure, but try hitting one with a heat gun and freeze mist in the right range to reach a temperature, or use an oven to hold the assemblage to test the range of operation. Have you ever done that? I have

Gotta say, I certainly haven't. Got me there.

 

[Jimbob54]

Gotta say, I certainly haven't. Got me there.

@hmscott Well, wolf and Amir did some temp testing on the ESS 9030 Pro chip in the M500. I dont think anyone is saying electronics arent affected by temperature. Whether the changes are audible is a different question .

But what has changes in ambient temp got to do with lots of hours on the clock changing the output sound ? Given most people listen for more than a few minutes, they are always going to get the devices up to operating temp.

Thats different from letting a DAC/ amp play for hundreds of hours and saying the sound changes in those hours (after the device reaches usual operating temp) .

I tend to let new devices (and transducers ) play on their own for a few days but more to flush out any faults / quality issues than to let them "burn in"

 

[BDWoody]

It's so true, so much nonsense, so much fighting against something you don't understand. Citing that which you know to be ridiculous doesn't make the subject you are ridiculing ridiculous, it's a childish argument.

The fact that you use similes instead of personal experience with the actual subject shows me you have no first hand experience with this and are reduced to subjective claims rather than data based conclusions.

Burn-in doesn't always sound better, but it's all you've got if the initial sound doesn't please your ears. I've put many items through break-in and still not been happy with the sound.

Burn-in doesn't know when to stop "burning", it's a physical process that continues until the components settle. This can happen as a permanent end, or a continual warm-up each time you power on.

Some scientific, engineering, or technical instrumentation have stable clock's at a certain temperature range which changes with ambient temperature, and without an oven to reach calibration temperature reliably cheap instruments need longer to warm up before they are usable for measurements.

I've had unstable DAC's that I shoot with freeze mist and then they firm right up. An extreme case to be sure, but try hitting one with a heat gun and freeze mist in the right range to reach a temperature, or use an oven to hold the assemblage to test the range of operation. Have you ever done that? I have

If you haven't done the simple tests and experiments to try it out for yourself, don't belittle that which you don't have any experience in investigating.

It's really not difficult to hold both concepts in the human brain, scientific measurements - which ones matter for one thing, do you know? - and hearing it - with your own ears - and seeing it - with your own eyes.

As a wise man once said, don't miss the forest for the tree's.

It's not a bad place to be in, not knowing, but it's a good place to move from - not get stuck in.

So, these differences should be clearly visible in measurements, right?

If a non-burned in device measures as transparent, a burned in one that sounds 'better' would then measure worse, or an I missing something?

Maybe we should send Amir a bunch of burned in gear to see if we can quantify this?

I am not closed minded, but dubious...in terms of any actual audible changes in any but the most odd or outlying case.

 

[boXem]

The fact that you use similes instead of personal experience with the actual subject shows me you have no first hand experience with this and are reduced to subjective claims rather than data based conclusions.

Personal experience doesn't allow data based conclusions.

Burn-in doesn't know when to stop "burning", it's a physical process that continues until the components settle. This can happen as a permanent end, or a continual warm-up each time you power on.

What physical process?

Some scientific, engineering, or technical instrumentation have stable clock's at a certain temperature range which changes with ambient temperature, and without an oven to reach calibration temperature reliably cheap instruments need longer to warm up before they are usable for measurements.

That electronics behave differently with temperature is the basics of physics. I don't get the link with burn-in.

I've had unstable DAC's that I shoot with freeze mist and then they firm right up. An extreme case to be sure, but try hitting one with a heat gun and freeze mist in the right range to reach a temperature, or use an oven to hold the assemblage to test the range of operation. Have you ever done that? I have

I did too (not a DAC but same problem). And thrown the part to bin. Parts having different behavior in their normal operating temperature range are not properly designed.
One of the tests Amir is running consists in measuring THD+N over time in order to verify that the performance doesn't change with temperature. Most DACs are perfectly stable.

It's really not difficult to hold both concepts in the human brain, scientific measurements - which ones matter for one thing, do you know? - and hearing it - with your own ears - and seeing it - with your own eyes.

Maybe you should start by holding two different concepts in your brain, heating and aging.

 

[Jimbob54]

That electronics behave differently with temperature is the basics of physics. I don't get the link with burn-in.

/QUOTE]

Ditto

 

[majingotan]

Yes, I have "Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device":
View attachment 67099
The Tidal Settings in the File Menu takes you to the settings dialog:
View attachment 67101
^^^ then click the Streaming Tab to select the Sound Output device for exclusive use,
and then click (More Settings) to get into this dialog:
View attachment 67098
When I toggle the Tidal "Use Exclusive Mode" option in the Tidal Streaming settings dialog the FiiO M15 USB DAC mode display changes from 384k/32bit to indicate the change, in this case to 88.2khz/32bit, and if I toggle the "Use Exclusive Mode" off while the Master Track is playing the FiiO M15 USB DAC mode display changes back to 384k/32bit.
And, here is the youtube playback error when Tidal has Exclusive Mode use:
View attachment 67113
Immediately as I disable "Exclusive Mode" toggle in Tidal I can refresh that youtube page and it will begin playing with audio.

I'll report back when I hook up the D90 MQA and see if that works the same.

Avoid setting your Fiio M15 as the default device so that you can play YouTube while having exclusive mode on Tidal ON. I can play MQA files on Audirvana that goes to Schiit Bifrost 2 while watching YouTube without getting that error that way

 

[Objectivist01]

Yep. I have had problems with iFi, NAD and Emotiva. Oh wait aren't they all manufactured in China also? . On the other hand I also had many problems with my Apple computer (also manufactured in China ). Are there actually any consumer electronics not produced in China anymore, except for some very expensive niche brands? I must say in all cases the customer service was good and my products where replaced/repaired. In the end that's the most important thing. My Topping devices are still going strong. But just saying... it can happen with any brand.

I had issues with my whord moho and jds labs made not in China before. “Lucky” that I never had a failed FiiO or xduoo or other no name stuff from china. Doesn’t prove one is superior than other.
When they say made in America, it’s mostly assembled in America, parts come from different countries, may be from China too.

 

[Veri]

I had issues with my whord moho

Never heard of this thing

 

[Objectivist01]

Never heard of this thing

Inspired by z reviews I watch them for the sake of listening to creative subjective explanations.

 

[ModDIY]

Even if I agree with the phenomena of warming and burn in. I think that continuing to try to convince the members of this forum does nothing.

Except maybe to stand out in style: I have 50 years of audiophile experience, I know what I'm talking about ... etc.

I'am new to this forum, and it is thanks in part to the rigorous measures on CAD that allowed me to advance in my understanding. This kind of discussion around burn in should be moved to the Opinion section.

 

[hmscott]

Even if I agree with the phenomena of warming and burn in. I think that continuing to try to convince the members of this forum does nothing.

Except maybe to stand out in style: I have 50 years of audiophile experience, I know what I'm talking about ... etc.

I'am new to this forum, and it is thanks in part to the rigorous measures on CAD that allowed me to advance in my understanding. This kind of discussion around burn in should be moved to the Opinion section.

I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything.

I'm here for the measurements and sharing the data - and finding tests to express what I am hearing in some measurable way.

It will take time of course, and answering questions of fellow audiophiles - those serious about having an intelligent discussion - and asking questions of my own in the same way, is all part of the process.

Thanks for understanding...

 

[boXem]

Even if I agree with the phenomena of warming and burn in. I think that continuing to try to convince the members of this forum does nothing.

Except maybe to stand out in style: I have 50 years of audiophile experience, I know what I'm talking about ... etc.

I'am new to this forum, and it is thanks in part to the rigorous measures on CAD that allowed me to advance in my understanding. This kind of discussion around burn in should be moved to the Opinion section.

You are right, it's OT, sorry for participating to it.
And I agree with you, it belongs to the Opinion section, since it's not science but just opinion .

 

[hmscott]

Avoid setting your Fiio M15 as the default device so that you can play YouTube while having exclusive mode on Tidal ON. I can play MQA files on Audirvana that goes to Schiit Bifrost 2 while watching YouTube without getting that error that way

Thanks, I'll see what I can do about that. This morning FiiO released updated firmware 0604 for the M15:

2. Added global MQA support - now the M15 supports 8x MQA unfolding when playing MQA tracks in third-party apps. However it does not include Tidal, Tidal will update to a version to adapt our product later. [edited to English]

UAPP can now do the full unfolding of the 24 bit Master (MQA) streamed from Tidal @ 384k. The Tidal App only does 88.2k. I'll be spending some time with those updates on USB DAC mode later, thanks for the suggestions.

Moved to Convo...

 

[jason.voegele]

I have a question regarding gain and volume controls in my headphone stack. I have the Topping D90 connected to the Monoprice Monolith THX AAA 887 headphone amp via balanced XLR. With this setup, I have three distinct mechanisms to control the loudness of the music coming out of the headphones:

1. The volume pot on the headphone amp
2. The gain level on the headphone amp (level 1, 2, or 3)
3. The digital volume control on the D90 DAC

I am wondering if there is any difference in "sound quality" for these different mechanisms such that I should prefer one over the others?

I am aware that there are channel imbalance issues with the Monoprice headphone amp when the volume pot is down below, say, 9 o'clock or so. Therefore, I do not set the DAC to output at full digital volume, because I would then be forced to turn the headphone amp volume pot down too low. I usually set the DAC digital volume to somewhere between -10dB and -25dB, and then set the gain level on the headphone amp to either 1 or 2, depending on the sensitivity of the headphones I have plugged in. Is it "better" or "worse" in any way to prefer the gain level on the headamp to the digital volume on the DAC, or vice versa? Or are these just two equivalent mechanisms for changing the loudness in headphones?

 

[Jimbob54]

I have a question regarding gain and volume controls in my headphone stack. I have the Topping D90 connected to the Monoprice Monolith THX AAA 887 headphone amp via balanced XLR. With this setup, I have three distinct mechanisms to control the loudness of the music coming out of the headphones:

1. The volume pot on the headphone amp
2. The gain level on the headphone amp (level 1, 2, or 3)
3. The digital volume control on the D90 DAC

I am wondering if there is any difference in "sound quality" for these different mechanisms such that I should prefer one over the others?

I am aware that there are channel imbalance issues with the Monoprice headphone amp when the volume pot is down below, say, 9 o'clock or so. Therefore, I do not set the DAC to output at full digital volume, because I would then be forced to turn the headphone amp volume pot down too low. I usually set the DAC digital volume to somewhere between -10dB and -25dB, and then set the gain level on the headphone amp to either 1 or 2, depending on the sensitivity of the headphones I have plugged in. Is it "better" or "worse" in any way to prefer the gain level on the headamp to the digital volume on the DAC, or vice versa? Or are these just two equivalent mechanisms for changing the loudness in headphones?

Personally, for ease and based on what I have read...

If all your 'phones can get loud enough on gain 1, stay there. Going higher gain (unless you are at the very end of the dial on low) will either make no difference or worsen distortion.

Knock the DAC volume down lets say 4 or 5 notches (maybe more)

Turn amp volume up for just about as loud as you'd want for first listening. As your ears adjust , if you're like me you'll crave more volume- use the DAC remote to up to taste (or down if a loud track comes on) .

 

[VeerK]

I have a question regarding gain and volume controls in my headphone stack. I have the Topping D90 connected to the Monoprice Monolith THX AAA 887 headphone amp via balanced XLR. With this setup, I have three distinct mechanisms to control the loudness of the music coming out of the headphones:

1. The volume pot on the headphone amp
2. The gain level on the headphone amp (level 1, 2, or 3)
3. The digital volume control on the D90 DAC

I am wondering if there is any difference in "sound quality" for these different mechanisms such that I should prefer one over the others?

I am aware that there are channel imbalance issues with the Monoprice headphone amp when the volume pot is down below, say, 9 o'clock or so. Therefore, I do not set the DAC to output at full digital volume, because I would then be forced to turn the headphone amp volume pot down too low. I usually set the DAC digital volume to somewhere between -10dB and -25dB, and then set the gain level on the headphone amp to either 1 or 2, depending on the sensitivity of the headphones I have plugged in. Is it "better" or "worse" in any way to prefer the gain level on the headamp to the digital volume on the DAC, or vice versa? Or are these just two equivalent mechanisms for changing the loudness in headphones?

I used to use -6dB on the D90, 50% on the 887 volume knob, low gain for the Focal Elex. Could not discern any noticeable difference with other configurations. It’s just an attempt to avoid channel imbalance whilst still being on low gain

 

[Martin]

I have a question regarding gain and volume controls in my headphone stack. I have the Topping D90 connected to the Monoprice Monolith THX AAA 887 headphone amp via balanced XLR. With this setup, I have three distinct mechanisms to control the loudness of the music coming out of the headphones:

1. The volume pot on the headphone amp
2. The gain level on the headphone amp (level 1, 2, or 3)
3. The digital volume control on the D90 DAC

I am wondering if there is any difference in "sound quality" for these different mechanisms such that I should prefer one over the others?

I am aware that there are channel imbalance issues with the Monoprice headphone amp when the volume pot is down below, say, 9 o'clock or so. Therefore, I do not set the DAC to output at full digital volume, because I would then be forced to turn the headphone amp volume pot down too low. I usually set the DAC digital volume to somewhere between -10dB and -25dB, and then set the gain level on the headphone amp to either 1 or 2, depending on the sensitivity of the headphones I have plugged in. Is it "better" or "worse" in any way to prefer the gain level on the headamp to the digital volume on the DAC, or vice versa? Or are these just two equivalent mechanisms for changing the loudness in headphones?

I set the DAC to output fixed volume at 0.0dB and use the headphone amp (or preamp when listening over speakers) to adjust volume. Pick the gain setting that allows you to set the volume knob between 11 and 1 o’clock. The rest is all volume knob tweaking. Enjoy

Martin

 

[Jimbob54]

I set the DAC to output fixed volume at 0.0dB and use the headphone amp (or preamp when listening over speakers) to adjust volume. Pick the gain setting that allows you to set the volume knob between 11 and 1 o’clock. The rest is all Volume knob tweaking. Enjoy

Martin

Im lazy so like to adjust volume from my seat across the room with DAC remote. But in a desktop situation, probably this.