Will consumers buy the Dutch & Dutch 8C?

[Lorenzo74]

What do you mean by that? With the possibile exception of the 75000$ Beolab, 20 years from now all of them will be landfill.
And if any of the manufacturers goes out of business or decides to stop selling consumer audio, that one will be trash immediately.

First, I hope their will be recycled in 20 years. We are evolving towards a more sustainable environment culture, everywhere.

I mean simply (as stated by many more entitled than me to speak) that the future of HiFi is in Active speaker where with the clever use of Digital capabilities it is possible to address the limitation of a technology (time domain, frequency domain, dispersion pattern,..) that has went through limited evolution (if we think to moving coil speaker) in the last 50-70 years... why I feel to have just opened Pandora's Box?

Future proof does not mean a speaker has to last forever in the manufacturer portfolio (Klipsch Horn,...), today we change our vehicles much faster than their real life-cycle capability, it is not sustainable but is going to change with C.A.S.E. I guess.
What is future proof is the direction, the ideas embedded in those designs presented to the Audiophile and Professional community.
This to me is quite disruptive especially in those environment (recording studio) where "Audio Science" rules, where audio performance definitely guide final choice and no fancy cables or nice looking cabinet matter.

In this respect Kii Three is gaining a tremendous pace both in lifestyle and professional market segment and this is the evidence that there is a growing percentage of educated listeners willing to invest >10k€ in convenience and quality avoiding as much as possible the impact on their living rooms by Turntable, CD player, DAC - Streamers, DSP, Preamp, Amp cables, stand and/or Speakers...
Those music lovers clearly fill the room with sound of the highest quality and regain the living space at the same time!
Am I challenging any Status Quo?

Alea Iacta Est

my Best
L.

 

[Purité Audio]

What do you mean by that? With the possibile exception of the 75000$ Beolab, 20 years from now all of them will be landfill.
And if any of the manufacturers goes out of business or decides to stop selling consumer audio, that one will be trash immediately.

I could be dead in twenty years, personally I want to enjoy the finest sound quality now.
Keith

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I'm not privy to the design elements of all of them. But if you say so I'll take your word for it.

OK.

But really, if you think they are worlds greatest thing since sliced bread, get off your wallet and buy some and quit blaming it on aesthetics.

Nope. Since I do not have a dedicated listening room, I will not live that way.

 

[Shorty]

But what's an owner to do when one of these boutique builders disappears and the proprietary electronics or software fail on these expensive speakers. Use them for bookmarks?

Worrying about “boutique builders” going bankrupt and leaving you with unrepairable hardware? It’s worse: when one of my less than 10 years old Revel M20’s units was destroyed, the importer told me it could not be replaced.
So if even a company as established as Revel leaves its customers up the creek, one might as well take the plunge and support a new, innovative company.

 

[ttimer]

Worrying about “boutique builders” going bankrupt and leaving you with unrepairable hardware? It’s worse: when one of my less than 10 years old Revel M20’s units was destroyed, the importer told me it could not be replaced.
So if even a company as established as Revel leaves its customers up the creek, one might as well take the plunge and support a new, innovative company.

The main issue will probably not be wear and the ability to repair. What really, fundamentally kills longevity (and sustainability) is obsolescence due to lack of app-maintenance. The second the company decides that it is no longer profitable to keep adapting their app to ever changing new operating systems (and paying the corresponding appstore fees), they will drop support and that fancy multi-k dollar speaker with all its cool tech and integrated functionality becomes an oversized paperweight. Or maybe the app requires some functionality which Apple has decided is "legacy" and will no longer be available on your iphone starting tomorrow...

 

[balletboy]

ME Geithain indeed has some problems, mainly price, availability on websites like Thomann and the lack of advanced electronics (class D amps or DSP). But I wouldn't buy the 8C or Kii as I don't like complex proprietary software contraptions prone to failure or lack of support for DIY programmers, even in the form of protocol specs; the 8C having a builtin webserver just for volume control is a nice touch for the final disgust, but that's too bad because I really like the studio version.

Let's say that the simplicity of MEG is reassuring and charming to some.

There are very few products these days that don't have complex proprietary software. If the software is poor or prone to failure it will kill the product's reputation. To the contrary, 8C or Kii are very popular in pro and consumer markets, so clearly don't have software problems. They are not designed for the DIY market so why do you think they should support DIY programmers? Why should they pay staff to support people who want to fiddle around with a perfectly good product? Makes no commercial sense at all.

I've been streaming with proprietary software for about 12 years (Linn, Auralic, Devialet, Bluesound) and have never had any software faults that I can remember. My current main unit (Devialet ) has been faultless since it's last software update in February 2019.

My son designs complex lifestyle audio products and they know they cannot release anything unless the software works absolutely perfectly.

 

[balletboy]

The main issue will probably not be wear and the ability to repair. What really, fundamentally kills longevity (and sustainability) is obsolescence due to lack of app-maintenance. The second the company decides that it is no longer profitable to keep adapting their app to ever changing new operating systems (and paying the corresponding appstore fees), they will drop support and that fancy multi-k dollar speaker with all its cool tech and integrated functionality becomes an oversized paperweight. Or maybe the app requires some functionality which Apple has decided is "legacy" and will no longer be available on your iphone starting tomorrow...

My first streamer was a Linn DS bought in 2008, a 2007 model, and it is still fully supported. I had to junk a 2012 iMac last year because the hardware could not support the latest version of OSX. So in that case Linn has outperformed Apple.

The biggest risk is reliance on third-party suppliers. Leica used a Kodak sensor in their digital M-range cameras, Kodak went bust and then Leica found the sensors were faulty. It almost destroyed the consumer brand. They had to spend a lot of money and 2 years to develop a replacement sensor.

Naim also used a third party developer for its streaming software that had an occasional catastrophic SQL error. This killed a server I had (the software company licensed to other manufacturers, my unit was not Naim). They abandoned it and now use their own proprietary software.

Lots of companies were using Oppo CD/SACD disc drives, making all their products unserviceable when Oppo pulled out a couple of years ago. Now for SACD they have to switch to Marantz and are relaiant on continuing production.

 

[Deleted member 65]

The main issue will probably not be wear and the ability to repair. What really, fundamentally kills longevity (and sustainability) is obsolescence due to lack of app-maintenance. The second the company decides that it is no longer profitable to keep adapting their app to ever changing new operating systems (and paying the corresponding appstore fees), they will drop support and that fancy multi-k dollar speaker with all its cool tech and integrated functionality becomes an oversized paperweight. Or maybe the app requires some functionality which Apple has decided is "legacy" and will no longer be available on your iphone starting tomorrow...

Exactly!
Only way to setup & control (EQ aso) my Elac SUB-2050 is through an IOS app. Apple released IOS13 and app ceased to work. Took months before Elac released new app that worked under IOS13.
Not expecting Elac to maintain app much longer.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I have Devialet Silver Phantoms from the first production batch (that did not have blutooth).
I was an involuntary beta tester of the software.
There is a new version of the OS which only works with units with blutooth. For now they still work fine of course but I inagine if the Dialog box (not needed with v2) or some other support problem kicks in they will be toast.
They are 5 years old.
They are my newest speaker and they sound great but...

 

[Lorenzo74]

I have Devialet Silver Phantoms from the first production batch (that did not have blutooth).
I was an involuntary beta tester of the software.
There is a new version of the OS which only works with units with blutooth. For now they still work fine of course but I inagine if the Dialog box (not needed with v2) or some other support problem kicks in they will be toast.
They are 5 years old.
They are my newest speaker and they sound great but...

this is the price to pay to enjoy novelty as early adopter.
did Devialet mentioned that Bluetooth was not available before you purchase it?
do you have a calibrated mic and REW? If so I would be interested in one meter freq response to see if tweeter mid and woofer are time aligned.
my Best
L.

 

[balletboy]

this is the price to pay to enjoy novelty as early adopter.
did Devialet mentioned that Bluetooth was not available before you purchase it?
do you have a calibrated mic and REW? If so I would be interested in one meter freq response to see if tweeter mid and woofer are time aligned.
my Best
L.

It's not a "price to pay". The units are perfectly functional. Just that later units have more functions. Happens all the time. Manufacturers add additional connectivity during the lifetime of a product, it doesn't make the older ones less useable.

Devialet's policy is to upgrade hardware when they can, sometimes major upgrades, but they still support the software for older versions. They do stop improving software for legacy hardware, but it remains functional.

I was emailing with Devialet's Chief Engineer about this only yesterday. He mentioned he gets lots of emails and regularly corresponds with customers. He was quite ill with C19, thankfully on the mend.

 

[Frank Dernie]

did Devialet mentioned that Bluetooth was not available before you purchase it?

I pre-ordered months before the product was available. Blutooth was something added later, I am not sure when, though the later single unit I bought does have it so I can control the volume from an app.
I personally probably will not be buying a speaker requiring software or a computer to play music again since I have largely gone away from file based music after almost 20 years.
I have been very tempted by the superb performance of the 8c but my room doesn't lend itself to their ideal positioning either and nothing about my current system is preventing me from musical enjoyment so my urge has been suppressed so far.

 

[HammerSandwich]

I've seen tons of front ported speakers on the market, I'm not knowledgeable if no one else has used them in the same manner but I find it hard to believe they are the only ones to ever think of tuning them that way, there are a lot of other very smart speaker designers around.

First, you're correct that the 8C's not the only passive cardioid out there. Olson wrote the book on this in the '60s, IIRC.

But the ports are on the sides, not the front, and that makes a huge difference here. The distance between the mid driver and the ports is exploited to cancel energy that wraps around the cabinet, producing the cardioid pattern. Can't do that with a front port (unless you want the main lobe aimed vertically, I suppose).

Kii locates woofers on the side panels, close to the baffle, for the same reason. Because the offset affects the frequencies over which you can make a cardioid pattern, both speakers have similar spacing.

 

[q3cpma]

There are very few products these days that don't have complex proprietary software. If the software is poor or prone to failure it will kill the product's reputation.

The world being filled with software like Windows 10 should prove otherwise. The idea that anything popular can't be bad is not serious one, anyway.

To the contrary, 8C or Kii are very popular in pro and consumer markets

Are they? I really doubt something at 10k€ (that still needs a sub in the case of Kii) can be "very popular": it's just too expensive, as good as it is.

Why should they pay staff to support people who want to fiddle around with a perfectly good product? Makes no commercial sense at all.

There's no need to pay anybody, just publish the protocol and an API.

I've been streaming with proprietary software for about 12 years (Linn, Auralic, Devialet, Bluesound) and have never had any software faults that I can remember. My current main unit (Devialet ) has been faultless since it's last software update in February 2019.

Even if it doesn't blow in your face right now, doesn't mean it's robustly designed.

My son designs complex lifestyle audio products and they know they cannot release anything unless the software works absolutely perfectly.

I myself am a programmer in the very rigorous military field. Only people who aren't there with the right knowledge can say "everything is fine" when the (not so) current fad is building stuff on sandcastles and having to solve problems for decades after the fact.

Anyway, that's not really the point. If they did at least document their protocol, a determined technical person could use it as he likes, instead of having stuff pushed on him. Being able to control the 8C's volume through ALSA would be nice, for example.
I'm really of the opinion that this whole streaming stuff should be outside the speakers, anyway. And if it uses a DAC, a class compliant USB input would make it perfect.

 

[Wes]

speakering of "dedicated listening rooms" - most people don't

to get greater consumer acceptance speakers should be small, placeable (nearly) anywhere, and less costly than the 8Cs are

I hope they will come out with smaller, less expensive speakers based on some of the same design principles.

 

[balletboy]

The world being filled with software like Windows 10 should prove otherwise. The idea that anything popular can't be bad is not serious one, anyway.

Are they? I really doubt something at 10k€ (that still needs a sub in the case of Kii) can be "very popular": it's just too expensive, as good as it is.

There's no need to pay anybody, just publish the protocol and an API.

Even if it doesn't blow in your face right now, doesn't mean it's robustly designed.

I myself am a programmer in the very rigorous military field. Only people who aren't there with the right knowledge can say "everything is fine" when the (not so) current fad is building stuff on sandcastles and having to solve problems for decades after the fact.

Anyway, that's not really the point. If they did at least document their protocol, a determined technical person could use it as he likes, instead of having stuff pushed on him. Being able to control the 8C's volume through ALSA would be nice, for example.
I'm really of the opinion that this whole streaming stuff should be outside the speakers, anyway. And if it uses a DAC, a class compliant USB input would make it perfect.

I haven’t used Windows for 15 years. It prevails because of cheap hardware and open source.

Why on earth would any company make its software publicly available if there was no commercial benefit in doing so? I can think of a long list of reasons not to.

I looked at D&D figures on The NL registry. Doing fine.

You seem to have a very dim view of commercial audio software. I have a little programming experience, going back to 1980, ranging from aeronatics to one of the first telecoms data switching systems (on Prime failsafe dual processing systems). I started with punch cards and remember when a 40mb hard drive had discs the size of a dustbin lid and cost £100,000. The software we use is fantastic - Spotify, Roon, Devialet OS and Bluesound BluOS - and none of it needs regular fixes.

 

[q3cpma]

I started with punch cards and remember when a 40mb hard drive had discs the size of a dustbin lid and cost £100,000. The software we use is fantastic - Spotify, Roon, Devialet OS and Bluesound BluOS - and none of it needs regular fixes.

How can you say both of these in the same breath? Roon's Windows installer is almost twice as big as your 40 MB hard drive and modern software is so bad that machines that are orders of magnitude faster end up slower (https://danluu.com/input-lag/). See http://suckless.org/philosophy/ or http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/plan9.html if you really want to know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, this has nothing to with publishing your protocol specs or providing a standard and portable interface like class compliant USB.

 

[Lorenzo74]

I pre-ordered months before the product was available. Blutooth was something added later, I am not sure when, though the later single unit I bought does have it so I can control the volume from an app.
I personally probably will not be buying a speaker requiring software or a computer to play music again since I have largely gone away from file based music after almost 20 years.
I have been very tempted by the superb performance of the 8c but my room doesn't lend itself to their ideal positioning either and nothing about my current system is preventing me from musical enjoyment so my urge has been suppressed so far.

I personally I was impressed by Kii three. I recommend you to try. Room Position is not an issue anymore.
they are superb.

 

[balletboy]

How can you say both of these in the same breath? Roon's Windows installer is almost twice as big as your 40 MB hard drive and modern software is so bad that machines that are orders of magnitude faster end up slower (https://danluu.com/input-lag/). See http://suckless.org/philosophy/ or http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/plan9.html if you really want to know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, this has nothing to with publishing your protocol specs or providing a standard and portable interface like class compliant USB.

In those days we designed an airship control system. Due to weight issues, we designed in FORTRAN, edited the code down into Assembler, burnt the code onto a chip and installed it on a pcb. The 25kb chips were expensive, it took days and we had to do that every time we changed the code. Roon updates in the background without stopping the music and Roon server update requires a reboot that takes under a minute. Modern audio software is absolutely brilliant and there are hundreds of millions of Spotify and other users who think so.

I’m not sure how latency of a desktop or laptop computer has any relevance to someone using Roon or Spotify on a phone, which is how people play music.

If you want Dutch & Dutch software access, perhaps we can have access to the software you design so we can fiddle around with that? Surely you must understand that no company in their right mind gives access to their software unless they absolutely have to. It’s just plain stupid.

why does everyone have to provide usb? In 12 years I’ve barely used it at all. I just use Ethernet, far better,
like D&D. I started with Linn, they have been making streamers very successfully for 13 years, large profits, leading UK company, and have never provided usb Input. They prefer Ethernet, otherwise optical.

 

[q3cpma]

If you want Dutch & Dutch software access, perhaps we can have access to the software you design so we can fiddle around with that? Surely you must understand that no company in their right mind gives access to their software unless they absolutely have to. It’s just plain stupid.

You still don't understand what I'm talking about. I'm not asking for their software, just the way to talk to it via an API. And seriously, D&D sells speakers, not software. What would it cost them to release it? It's not like it's of any use to competitors by itself.

why does everyone have to provide usb? In 12 years I’ve barely used it at all. I just use Ethernet, far better,
like D&D. I started with Linn, they have been making streamers very successfully for 13 years, large profits, leading UK company, and have never provided usb Input. They prefer Ethernet, otherwise optical.

Because class compliant USB is the standard and portable way of presenting audio devices to OSes, as I already said. Every system has a generic UAC driver providing all the mixing or volume control features you would want at no cost for you; and you can still make a more advanced driver if you need it.

This is really on the level of Microtech or Apple with their proprietary screw heads.