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Seeking recommendations: Best active speakers for $10k/pair? (Would also be offered for measurement.)

richard12511

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As evolution both the 8351B and and 8361A show higher and more continuous directivities than the older 8260A, just look at their power responses:
View attachment 64461View attachment 64462View attachment 64463

Especially the 8351B is a significant improvement, also over the above posted 8351B.
As also said many times before small FR deviations and anechoic -3dB bass points are irrelevant in practice as the first can and second should be EQed according to the room and listeners position.

The power response of the newer models does look better, and I agree that small FR deviations are unlikely to matter.
 

richard12511

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I honestly cannot imagine the 8351B not having enough bass for music listening in any kind of small room/office situation. Like sure, the 8260A has a hypothetical lower -6db point, but in practice GLM is probably going to need to EQ the bass down anyways due to boundary reinforcement.

I agree, especially with the OP saying he mostly listens around 70db. Very little music has ULF, and these speakers should dig pretty deep at 70db after EQ.

Having said that, there's definitely something to be said for having 4-8 well placed and integrated subs that's not just about output.
 
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echopraxia

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I agree, especially with the OP saying he mostly listens around 70db. Very little music has ULF, and these speakers should dig pretty deep at 70db after EQ.

Having said that, there's definitely something to be said for having 4-8 well placed and integrated subs that's not just about output.

Yeah, and if I find the 8351B’s built-in bass capabilities to be insufficient, I can buy the Genelec 7360A subwoofer and I’ll only be 5% over budget.

This is trusting that Genelec’s software will be able to perfectly integrate the sub. I am still concerned about localization issues if I don’t center the sub in the room, but perhaps that issue will go away for the first time with Genelec’s software — though I don’t know how their choice of crossover point and slope works.
 

detlev24

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[...] This is trusting that Genelec’s software will be able to perfectly integrate the sub. I am still concerned about localization issues if I don’t center the sub in the room, but perhaps that issue will go away for the first time with Genelec’s software — though I don’t know how their choice of crossover point and slope works.
The GLM (Control Network) should do the job, as long as you do not follow the centralized bass management method - as described in the 7360A's operating manual.

However, in any case and in advance, you would have to identify the best location for a subwoofer in your room. // Rythmik Audio does also have some great Advice for subwoofer integration on their website.

[EDIT]
Link adjusted.
 
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pierre

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There are a few very important things, amongst others, those measurements will not tell you about:
  • SPL capabilities vs. distortion levels; as previously mentioned by others
  • Psychoacoustics: especially the influence of a deep, full bass reproduction to the overall listening experience
  • The effects of no or improper acoustic treatment; which might mask all those small advantages in your room, that show on carefully controlled measurements.

You should be used to quality bass reproduction, since you show a collection of superb Rythmik Audio subwoofers in your signature. By ~95% chance, you would choose a pair of 8260A over the newer models - unless, you add (a) subwoofer(s) to the equation.

The W371A is meant to improve "The Ones" up to and including the 'Low mid' region: up to 500 Hz. Due to increasing directivity at these frequencies, one would absolutely require a W371A to complement every main speaker. Performance would be incredibly good, I guess, but a single W371A would already consume 90% of the target budget. At a rated frequency response down to 23 Hz (-6 dB), room gain should push it easily to below 20 Hz in a real room of average size.

The 8260A would benefit less of the W371A, hence a "typical" subwoofer - like the 7380A - would probably make more sense in this scenario.

So, stand-alone, I personally would favor the 8260A even over the 8361A.

I can attest that the w371 is a killer system. I really like the mode in which GLM optimize for constant directivity. I can move around the console and the sound stays the same. Impressive. Price is not reasonable.
 

HooStat

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I can attest that the w371 is a killer system. I really like the mode in which GLM optimize for constant directivity. I can move around the console and the sound stays the same. Impressive. Price is not reasonable.

Do you have any further thoughts about the 8341 + 2 subs vs 8361? I was very interested in what you wrote about them and how similar they were until the loudness increased.
 

pierre

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Do you have any further thoughts about the 8341 + 2 subs vs 8361? I was very interested in what you wrote about them and how similar they were until the loudness increased.

I did some comparisons (glm calibrated for each experiment, subjective review so YMMV):

8341x2 v.s. 8361x2 same room (35mˆ2) speakers are 20 cm apart.
On bass light music, I don't hear a difference. As soon as there is more bass, 8361 wins clearly (the bass make all the difference). When volume increase, then 8341 start to compress but 8361 can fill the room easily to uncomfortable level. 8361 are flat in room to 20hz but without subs the response is wobby as you would expect.

8341x2 + 1x7370 v.s 8361x2 (80mˆ2 room, sub in the middle, listening distance 2 then 4m)
the small one with the sub are much better nearfiled (and also mid field) than the large ones. The 8361 doesn't go that low and you hear the difference easily on contrabass for example or on Time from Hans Zimmer. On Axis is also better with the sub (GLM does its job).

8361x2 + 1x7370 (80mˆ2 room)
living room is at concert party level, sub goes out of steam before the 8361 does. (I would need a much bigger sub).
Plays Toxugen from The Orbs, Live in Prague from Hanz Zimmer full concert. No audible distorsion ...

8361x2 + W371x2 + 1x7370 room is 35 sqm2 some treatments, listening distance 3m
there is 3 integrations modes between the Ones and the W371:
- flatest in room response
- minimise bounces
- constant directivity
I prefer the 3rd one.

I know you all want measurements between the various mode to understand what they do. This will come when I have enough time.
If you have suggestion of what to measure, I am listening. I wanted to do on-axis and some off axis but that will not be very precise.
 
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echopraxia

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There are a few very important things, amongst others, those measurements will not tell you about:
  • SPL capabilities vs. distortion levels; as previously mentioned by others
  • Psychoacoustics: especially the influence of a deep, full bass reproduction to the overall listening experience
  • The effects of no or improper acoustic treatment; which might mask all those small advantages in your room, that show on carefully controlled measurements.

You should be used to quality bass reproduction, since you show a collection of superb Rythmik Audio subwoofers in your signature. By ~95% chance, you would choose a pair of 8260A over the newer models - unless, you add (a) subwoofer(s) to the equation.

The W371A is meant to improve "The Ones" up to and including the 'Low mid' region: up to 500 Hz. Due to increasing directivity at these frequencies, one would absolutely require a W371A to complement every main speaker. Performance would be incredibly good, I guess, but a single W371A would already consume 90% of the target budget. At a rated frequency response down to 23 Hz (-6 dB), room gain should push it easily to below 20 Hz in a real room of average size.

The 8260A would benefit less of the W371A, hence a "typical" subwoofer - like the 7380A - would probably make more sense in this scenario.

So, stand-alone, I personally would favor the 8260A even over the 8361A.

I missed this post yesterday. Yeah I’m used to amazing bass quality from the Rythmik’s. I’ve not found any subwoofer that can match their quality (and power and price), though I’ve never tried some of the more expensive stuff like Genelec (which honestly don’t look that appealing in specs, other than the GLM software, which is probably worth it if it can solve integration problems like I have without hassle).

To give a concrete example, while the KH310s are down for repair (will be a while due to COVID the repair facility is closed), I moved a Rythmik F12 + Ascend Sierra 2EX in here. There is no question that the deep bass from the Rythmik is amazing. But I found that this system as integrated is lacking a sort of very nice tactile impact and vibration feeling I get from the KH310s in the bass frequencies probably around the crossover region — not the fault of the subwoofer, for sure (no issues with tactile etc sensation from the frequencies it handles), but I haven’t been able to solve this aside from maybe MiniDSP which I haven’t yet tried. I tried a few placement, crossover, and phase options, but still couldn’t replicate the same nice midbass feel.

While it’s possible in this case the Sierra 2EX is the culprit, I don’t think so. I noticed the same thing from the Revel F206 I have set up in a different room when crossed over with another Rythmik F12. Originally I thought it was just some kind of room gain effect in my office room, and not the Neumann KH310s per se, but the swap has demonstrated it’s either something about the KH310s vs my other speakers, OR a sub integration problem in every room I have, to differing degrees.

I imagine it might also simply be that the KH310s are flatter than any of my other speakers aside from the KH120 (which I also loved in this room before gifting them to my wife’s home office), but it’s hard to compare when the KH120 have less bass extension.

This reminds me, I should try to get around to doing a blind test of the KH120 vs Sierra 2EX. Now that I’ve heard the Sierra 2EX in the same room now, I suspect the Neumann KH120 may be the only speaker I’ve found in the similar price range that beats it.
 
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stevenswall

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I honestly cannot imagine the 8351B not having enough bass for music listening in any kind of small room/office situation. Like sure, the 8260A has a hypothetical lower -6db point, but in practice GLM is probably going to need to EQ the bass down anyways due to boundary reinforcement.

It does EQ it back down to flat... to 18hz. This is exactly why no speaker has too much bass for a room. Even if it can play 130dB at 10hz, it takes fifteen seconds to run the calibration again and then it's flat, or contoured to user preference, and great!
 

Ron Texas

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The part which makes no sense to me is the OP has a 9x11 room. As for the rest, Neumann and Genelec are running wild and the usual fears on D&D reliability have been expressed. I hope the OP enjoys his new Genelec's. They should rock and benefit from room gain.
 
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detlev24

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I missed this post yesterday. Yeah I’m used to amazing bass quality from the Rythmik’s. I’ve not found any subwoofer that can match their quality (and power and price), though I’ve never tried some of the more expensive stuff like Genelec (which honestly don’t look that appealing in specs, other than the GLM software, which is probably worth it if it can solve integration problems like I have without hassle). [...]
Proper integration of a subwoofer is challenging, without any doubt; multiple subwoofers make things even more complicated. For Genelec, I do see the biggest advantage in their complete GLM-featured package; which does come at its cost. Without taking GLM into the equation or for somebody who prefers a different (software) approach, there are many and often less expensive options available (especially, on the huge US subwoofer market). Dirac Live Bass Control, for example, will provide an interesting competition on the software side.

However, as I said before, even with GLM you need to find the best location for your subwoofer(s) in advance; which is possible only by trial & error: lots of measurements and moving [usually, the subwoofer/s] around your room. A time-consuming process!

For manual integration or a semi-automatic approach, you need to continue taking measurements upon having found the optimum subwoofer location; at different settings [delay/phase, crossover frequencies etc.], compare those and in the end choose the settings which - on the measurements - showed the most seamless integration in your room. This "headache"; GLM - or any similar software - will take over.

We shall not forget, that the bass region extends up to 250 Hz or 300 Hz (depending on the cited literature). If I may quote Ethan Winer: "[…] Subwoofers typically operate only below 80 Hz, while the bass range extends up to 300 Hz. So no matter how many subwoofers you throw at the problem, you'll never improve the "speaking range" of bass instruments where clarity and minimal ringing are most important. Below 80 Hz is for the "weight" of music, and movie explosions."

[ EDIT: Interactive Frequency Chart from Independent Recording Network ]

This might as well be another curiosity you encountered. On the LFE inputs, Rythmik Audio subwoofers extend up to ~200 Hz, which helps to solve part of the problem but then additionally, increased directivity at such relatively high frequencies has to be considered.

The LF drivers on "The Ones" can be approached as ellipsoids, so for area calculation the following formula would apply: A = ½ H x ½ W x π. In case of the 8351B, that gives a total area of both the LF drivers of 345.86 cm². This is close to the 8.25" driver on your KH 310 A, where the formula A = (½ D)² x π = 346.36 cm² applies. Neumann gives a crossover frequency for the LF driver at 650 Hz in their technical specifications; and Genelec at 320 Hz. I do not know how 2 drivers of a similar area [Genelec] vs. 1 bigger driver [Neumann] do translate in real life and furthermore, the LF driver on the KH 310 A reproduces up to one entire octave higher; which as well might be perceived to be more beneficial - with regards to loudspeaker designs, where smaller drivers take over earlier. Hence, Genelec is offering the W371A, which plays up to 500 Hz; to fill up for any design compromises.

[I would love to see where and how "GLM" sets the crossover, in such a setup!]

A = area; H = height; W = width; D = diameter; π = ~3.14
 
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pierre

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Thank you so much! Just to clarify how far apart are the speakers? 20 cm seems narrow. Also how far away were you (approximately)? My room is about 35m^2.

pairs of speaker are 3m a part, I am listening almost 3 meters from them. when I compared them I did put each pair close together (~20cm). I have the same room size. 8341x2 + 7370 are too small if you like high volume.
 

HooStat

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pairs of speaker are 3m a part, I am listening almost 3 meters from them. when I compared them I did put each pair close together (~20cm). I have the same room size. 8341x2 + 7370 are too small if you like high volume.

That is perfect -- very much like my room. I don't like high volume, and will probably get the 8351b (without a sub). Then I can add a sub as necessary. Though it sounds like with the 8361a having a sub in the smaller room would help smooth out the bass.
 

richard12511

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Yeah, and if I find the 8351B’s built-in bass capabilities to be insufficient, I can buy the Genelec 7360A subwoofer and I’ll only be 5% over budget.

This is trusting that Genelec’s software will be able to perfectly integrate the sub. I am still concerned about localization issues if I don’t center the sub in the room, but perhaps that issue will go away for the first time with Genelec’s software — though I don’t know how their choice of crossover point and slope works.

There was another member here who had both the 8351B and the 8260A side by side in his home for a few weeks and ended up choosing the 8351B.
 

napilopez

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As far as I know the best active speakers in this price range are @Martijn Mensink 8c. You just have to wait for them to decide what they really are . Studio speakers or a home solutions with a room end point .

As noted earlier, they now have a 'studio' version of the speaker for those who don't care about room or fancy oak cabinets. I like the approach; the distinction between studio and home use is mostly artificial/marketing anyway. Some acoustic design goals may be different, but mostly it's the same.
 

FrantzM

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As noted earlier, they now have a 'studio' version of the speaker for those who don't care about room or fancy oak cabinets. I like the approach; the distinction between studio and home use is mostly artificial/marketing anyway. Some acoustic design goals may be different, but mostly it's the same.
Does it has the DSP? What else is removed.. ? Price is attractive.
 

Purité Audio

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I believe the only distance is the MDF cabinet, and the even further reduced colour options ie black.
There are also two fixings for ‘u’ stand.
Keith
 
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