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Seeking recommendations: Best active speakers for $10k/pair? (Would also be offered for measurement.)

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echopraxia

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The crossover thing can be treated with timing. I would get a minidsp 2x4hd and spend considerably time messing with delays. If you listen at 70-80db, the 8351 is a better loudspeaker than the 8361. I would go with the 8351b + minidsp hd + dual subs(quad subs is even better). For 70-80db listening, I doubt that any system(regardless of budget) would sound better.

I am actively trying to avoid spending time fiddling with what is effectively “ameteur speaker engineering lite”: striving to achieve that perfect sub-speaker crossover. I would much rather spend that time doing more of my work — a different kind of engineering, which I get paid for and can use to budget paying a premium for speakers that don’t take endless fiddling to sound good :)

I’ve grown tired trying to buy a dozen DSP, DAC, etc. products trying to chase the perfect crossover when the KH310 has shown me that (1) 30hz bass extension is enough for me (perhaps ideal, even) for my home office music setup, and (2) this out of the box product has given me better results overall in the crossover region than I can probably hope to achieve, and (3) I would much rather pay a premium to free up my time from endlessly fiddling with DSPs and subwoofer placements chasing that optimal mid bass region when the KH310 has already shown I don’t need to. I’d rather instead spend that time working more hours from my home office while listening to amazing speakers that just work :)
 

richard12511

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I am actively trying to avoid spending time fiddling with what is effectively “ameteur speaker engineering lite”: striving to achieve that perfect sub-speaker crossover. I would much rather spend that time doing more of my work — a different kind of engineering, which I get paid for and can use to budget paying a premium for speakers that don’t take endless fiddling to sound good :)

I’ve grown tired trying to buy a dozen DSP, DAC, etc. products trying to chase the perfect crossover when the KH310 has shown me that (1) 30hz bass extension is enough for me (perhaps ideal, even) for my home office music setup, and (2) this out of the box product has given me better results overall in the crossover region than I can probably hope to achieve, and (3) I would much rather pay a premium to free up my time from endlessly fiddling with DSPs and subwoofer placements chasing that optimal mid bass region when the KH310 has already shown I don’t need to. I’d rather instead spend that time working more hours from my home office while listening to amazing speakers that just work :)

In that case I would definitely recommend the D&D 8C. I imagine they will get you 90% of the way there, relative to Genelecs + properly integrated subs.
 

napilopez

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I am actively trying to avoid spending time fiddling with what is effectively “ameteur speaker engineering lite”: striving to achieve that perfect sub-speaker crossover. I would much rather spend that time doing more of my work — a different kind of engineering, which I get paid for and can use to budget paying a premium for speakers that don’t take endless fiddling to sound good :)

I’ve grown tired trying to buy a dozen DSP, DAC, etc. products trying to chase the perfect crossover when the KH310 has shown me that (1) 30hz bass extension is enough for me (perhaps ideal, even) for my home office music setup, and (2) this out of the box product has given me better results overall in the crossover region than I can probably hope to achieve, and (3) I would much rather pay a premium to free up my time from endlessly fiddling with DSPs and subwoofer placements chasing that optimal mid bass region when the KH310 has already shown I don’t need to. I’d rather instead spend that time working more hours from my home office while listening to amazing speakers that just work :)

This is what I suspect is at play with my feelings about the 8c, and also why some people just prefer to not run subs. In theory, you can get everything just right with subs with time and effort, but in practice it doesn't always work and isn't worth the hassle. Especially if you don't have a dedicated listening room and might occasionally move stuff around a bit.

I'm also starting to wonder if there's something about having good directivity matching down to the sub-bass that makes a system sound better. Yes, I know low bass radiation is omnidirectional and largely not localizeable, but I wonder if there's something to having a smooth transition in directivity that might be subtly perceptible.

Is there any research on this? Like whether people can hear a difference/have a preference between a full-range speaker vs the same speaker crossed with subs, EQ'd for the same response?
 
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echopraxia

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In that case I would definitely recommend the D&D 8C. I imagine they will get you 90% of the way there, relative to Genelecs + properly integrated subs.
Yeah from the data I can see, it certainly seems the best. Now I just need to figure out how to mentally get over the idea of paying $10k on an active speaker from a new company without a reliability track record or guarantee of being able to repair it many years down the road.

For that reason, I’m very tempted to sway towards a Genelec or Neumann. But it would also be unfortunate to miss out on the latest and greatest tech just because it’s not yet from an established brand.

Not an easy choice I suppose. I wish I could learn more about the company D&D but their website seems suspiciously sparse on details or background or company history or anything at all really, aside from their one product.
 

beefkabob

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I understand this route and have tried it, and still find e.g. the Neumann KH310 is better tuned and somehow higher fidelity sound across mid bass frequencies than anything I can achieve with this approach of manually tuning subwoofer crossovers that generally sweep through that critical bass to mid bass region.

I want a simple stereo set of two speakers that I can buy that sounds amazing without a ton of tedious hand-tuning, and takes less space and fewer pieces than two subs, two speakers, and several MiniDSP unite with a massive tangle of power cables and signal cables sprawled everywhere.

In other words, I don’t want to engineer an integrated speaker system, I want to buy one. The Neumann KH310 actually achieves this for me fantastically well, aside from deep sub bass extension. For my office setup, it’s nearly perfect. But I‘m curious to explore potential upgrades, especially now during the time when one of my KH310s has to be sent back to fix a rattle it seems to have developed.

You're not getting down to 20hz. This doesn't matter with most rock albums, but it makes a big difference for electronic music and hip hop. Also movies.

I am actively trying to avoid spending time fiddling with what is effectively “ameteur speaker engineering lite”: striving to achieve that perfect sub-speaker crossover. I would much rather spend that time doing more of my work — a different kind of engineering, which I get paid for and can use to budget paying a premium for speakers that don’t take endless fiddling to sound good :)

I’ve grown tired trying to buy a dozen DSP, DAC, etc. products trying to chase the perfect crossover when the KH310 has shown me that (1) 30hz bass extension is enough for me (perhaps ideal, even) for my home office music setup, and (2) this out of the box product has given me better results overall in the crossover region than I can probably hope to achieve, and (3) I would much rather pay a premium to free up my time from endlessly fiddling with DSPs and subwoofer placements chasing that optimal mid bass region when the KH310 has already shown I don’t need to. I’d rather instead spend that time working more hours from my home office while listening to amazing speakers that just work :)

MiniDSP SHD and Dirac makes it pretty darned easy. You follow the instructions in the manual to set up very steep and precise digital crossovers at 60 or 80hz. Install the software. Set up your mic where you sit. Do one reading. Don't bother to do more since it's just you right there. Let Dirac do it's magic. Then you turn stun your friends with how the subwoofer has utterly disappeared into the amazing sound stage.

If you're not using room correction, you're not going to hear good sound anyway, sub or not.

Getting a stereo without room correction is like buying a car and never adjusting the seat.

Did you try MiniDSP and Dirac yet?

But what I really think is happening is that you think there's a sub integration problem but it's really just psychoacoustics.
Perhaps you don't realize the lack of integration with separate drivers? You must go get a single driver speaker with one of those big ass horns on it. Then no integration problems ever.
 
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echopraxia

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This is what I suspect is at play with my feelings about the 8c, and also why some people just prefer to not run subs. In theory, you can get everything just right with subs with time and effort, but in practice it doesn't always work and isn't worth the hassle. Especially if you don't have a dedicated listening room and might occasionally move stuff around a bit.

I'm also starting to wonder if there's something about having good directivity matching down to the sub-bass that makes a system sound better. Yes, I know low bass radiation is omnidirectional and largely not localizeable, but I wonder if there's something to having a smooth transition in directivity that might be subtly perceptible.

Is there any research on this? Like whether people can hear a difference/have a preference between a full-range speaker vs the same speaker crossed with subs, EQ'd for the same response?

So I’ve said this before on other forums, but I’m actually quite skeptical of this notion that bass isn’t localizable. I became hyper-aware of this when I switched from my KH310 (which are of course set up stereo) to a traditional setup in the same room, with my sub on the left side of the room.

It immediately became so obvious that the sub was to my left directly, that it was extremely distracting. So I lowered the crossover to 40hz and it was still immediately clear where the sub was with my eyes closed. I’ve even measured the room with just the sub to make sure there are no significant harmonics or other content at higher frequencies, and there is not.

This has been the case for all four rooms I have ever had subwoofers in, ranging from very large rooms to very small rooms. I cannot stand subwoofer setups that are not symmetrical.

Maybe most people can’t localize bass, but I certainly seem to be able to.

I have since placed my subwoofer in the exact center of my two main speakers in my current office setup (while the KH310s are down for maintenance), and the localization issue is gone now. But I still can’t get the mid bass in this room to march the quality of the KH310s.
 
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echopraxia

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You're not getting down to 20hz. This doesn't matter with most rock albums, but it makes a big difference for electronic music and hip hop. Also movies.
I know, but I’m okay with bass extension of only 30hz in this home office room, at least for now. In another room I use for movies, I have dual Rythmik F18s which I’ve measured putting out in excess of 130db, so I think I’m covered there. I have four subwoofers overall so I’m good on subwoofers and can try integrating one in my office some day if I really feel the need.
 

richard12511

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So I’ve said this before on other forums, but I’m actually quite skeptical of this notion that bass isn’t localizable. I became hyper-aware of this when I switched from my KH310 (which are of course set up stereo) to a traditional setup in the same room, with my sub on the left side of the room.

It immediately became so obvious that the sub was to my left directly, that it was extremely distracting. So I lowered the crossover to 40hz and it was still immediately clear where the sub was with my eyes closed. I’ve even measured the room with just the sub to make sure there are no significant harmonics or other content at higher frequencies, and there is not.

This has been the case for all four rooms I have ever had subwoofers in, ranging from very large rooms to very small rooms. I cannot stand subwoofer setups that are not symmetrical.

Maybe most people can’t localize bass, but I certainly seem to be able to.

I have since placed my subwoofer in the exact center of my two main speakers in my current office setup (while the KH310s are down for maintenance), and the localization issue is gone now. But I still can’t get the mid bass in this room to march the quality of the KH310s.

I think this may be due to expectation bias. Your brain knows where the sub is, so even under blind conditions, it's not truly blind. I've tested with my friends both single and multi sub configs and they can't tell where it's coming from even up to 150hz. The more subs you add, the harder localization becomes. With 4 well placed subs, I'd bet considerable money that you couldn't localize them below 120hz.
 

napilopez

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So I’ve said this before on other forums, but I’m actually quite skeptical of this notion that bass isn’t localizable. I became hyper-aware of this when I switched from my KH310 (which are of course set up stereo) to a traditional setup in the same room, with my sub on the left side of the room.

It immediately became so obvious that the sub was to my left directly, that it was extremely distracting. So I lowered the crossover to 40hz and it was still immediately clear where the sub was with my eyes closed. I’ve even measured the room with just the sub to make sure there are no significant harmonics or other content at higher frequencies, and there is not.

This has been the case for all four rooms I have ever had subwoofers in, ranging from very large rooms to very small rooms. I cannot stand subwoofer setups that are not symmetrical.

Maybe most people can’t localize bass, but I certainly seem to be able to.

I have since placed my subwoofer in the exact center of my two main speakers in my current office setup (while the KH310s are down for maintenance), and the localization issue is gone now. But I still can’t get the mid bass in this room to march the quality of the KH310s.

I've grown to feel similarly. I mean, once I tried to have my sub close to LP and it was painfully obvious bass wasn't coming from the same place as my speakers with a 80hz crossover. In some cases it's simply the tactile sensation of the bass that feels off. And yes, I do use room correction/have used Dirac.

@richard12511 's comment of expectation bias also shouldn't be ignored. I mean, only way you wouldn't know where your sub is if someone hid it for you :p. I remember when I tested the L100 Classic I thought they imaged a bit better with the grille on for a while, which I'm 99 percent sure was only because I could not longer see the fact that the offset tweeter was not mirrored :D.
 
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richard12511

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I've grown to feel similarly. I mean, once I tried to have my sub close to LP and it was painfully obvious bass wasn't coming from the same place as my speakers with a 80hz crossover. In some cases it's simply the tactile sensation of the bass that feels off. And yes, I do use room correction/have used Dirac.

@richard12511 's comment of expectation bias also shouldn't be ignored. I mean, only way you wouldn't know where your sub is if someone hid it for you :p. I remember when I tested the L100 Classic I thought they images a bit better with the grille on for a while, which I'm 99 percent sure was only because I could not longer see the fact that the offset tweeter was not mirrored :D.

I think it's easy to localize a sub that's super nearfield . It's really weird, but I feel like it goes from relatively easy to near impossible very quickly When I first placed my first nearfleld sub directly behind my mlp, it was easy to localize. Once I moved it back 24 inches, it was basically impossible.
 

HooStat

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Based on the fact that you (like me) don't want to be an amateur speaker designer, it sounds like a good option is Genelec 8361. It has room correction and plays loud and clean and has reasonable bass. And is from an established company. Your only risk is that it might not go low enough for you, but it sounds like it has everything else. Set it, forget it, and enjoy it.

It also depends on the size of your room of course.

ME Geithain makes some very interesting products (German company). No DSP, but they seem to be well-regarded. You can contact them and they will sell to you in the US directly (I just asked them last week). Not sure about how to get warranty service or even how their models compare, but I see people talking about them on this forum.

On a related note, you should send your working speaker to Amir to test while you wait for repairs. I think he only needs one.
 
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beefkabob

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Try this out then: https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_basslocalization.php
No blind test, unfortunately.
Maybe some people can locate at 80hz or 60hz. It would probably help to have an obscenely large head.
When you get close to a loud sub, you can actually feel the air moving off it. That makes localization easy.
Like all speakers, subs have harmonic distortion. The Rythmik F18 has quite high 3rd harmonic distortion. That would make them easier to localize.
 

q3cpma

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The KH420 is indeed a very good choice, and quite "cheap" for what it brings, but I'd still recommend the 8351B with a 7360A (can be augmented later by another). Subwoofer integration may be hard, but that's exactly the reason why Genelec sells their GLM thing: everything is automated and you just have to push the button. No fiddling to be done, it's a complete solution.

The reason why I'm partial to the Genelec is mainly the warranty and integrated no-nonsense room correction that'll really simplify your life compared to what you'd have to do with the Neumanns.

The D&D could be another nice choice, but I don't have much faith in the reliability of the software side, personally. Nor do I know if they'll be here in 10 years with spare parts available to repair your stuff. Really, you're departing from the pro market with its grill protected drivers into the uncertain waters of boutique stuff; which can be amazing on the sound and technology side (the 8c really are), but reliability is king for me.

The Kii is too small to work without subs, so the price is simply too high; same with the Grimm.


Fanboy mode on

and CAST ALUMINIUM CABINETS!!1!

Fanboy mode off

Anyway, if you do make the jump, excited to get measurements of any of these.
excited little girl.gif
 
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Wombat

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I have devices, made by big-name companies, made defunct by cessation of software support/future computer OS incompatibility.

No way will I spend huge dollars on such dependent hardware.
 

GXAlan

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Genelec. Reliability and performance.

But consider also getting my mystery speaker just to prove to yourself that the extra expense was worth it... :)
 

Purité Audio

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I have been selling Dutch&Dutch for four approaching four years so they are hardly new, reliability has been excellent but I would aim to hear all the ‘possibles’ in your own room, also if you are not in a tearing hurry you might wait for the Gegentakt M2, their measurements look extremely promising.
Keith
 

Absolute

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In my experience you can absolutely hear where the sub is located - if you don't play the mains at the same time. If you, then the higher frequencies of the speakers will dominate our radar.
But I much prefer two subs over one because that sounds far better and removes the localization issue if only low content is produced and speakers aren't making much noise.

Reading through this thread I think it's obvious that the Neumann's are so heavily favored that objectivity is lost, so not sure what could be said to combat that.
 
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