Rythmik L12 Subwoofer Review

[QMuse]

@amirm As this sub can play 20Hz can you plz show THD from 20Hz?

 

[jeffhenning]

Nice to see this sub's reputation being confirmed.

Bass is a big part of my life given that it's my instrument.

I have five LS50's in my home theater. Under the left and right channels, I have a pair of Rythmik L12's stacked: they act both as speaker stands and subs.

A few things to consider:

• There is no sub currently on the market near the price that's as good as this one
• I bought one, then another one and then another pair
• Total cost: about $2,300
• The only single sub on the planet that can out do this foursome would be Rythmik's dual 15" driver subs and, may be, those Paradigm behemoths that have 6 drivers. Even then, it won't be by much (up the count to six L12's and I doubt any single sub can compete). A Rythmik dual 15 runs about $2,300 and the Paradigms start at $6,500 - both weigh well over 100 lbs. An L12 is about 50 lbs. I like that it's compact and easy to move.
• Given the size of my basement, this is as much bass as I could possibly need and as much space as I wanted to sacrifice
• For me, it's not about loudness, it's about sound quality. With 1.2 kiloWatts of total power, these will play ungodly loud, but, as shown in the one measurement, the distortion at 30Hz is ridiculously low for a sub (around 2.5% with no SPL given so I'll assume it's around 90dB). Going from one to 4 subs means that each sub can play 12dB lower to attain the same, in-room level. That should reduce the total THD to around 0.7% or so as well as excite much fewer cabinet resonances over all. This means that the four subs together will produce 2.5% THD at a level around 12dB higher. That's scary good.
• The performance you can get from this system is not attainable by any full-range speakers that go for 3 times the price and it's on par with everything available around 10-20 times the price at levels of 100dB or less (the subs can play louder, the LS50's can't really and I'm alright with that). Playing my 5-string bass through this system, the low B note is awe-inspiring.
• I have the LS50's crossover to the subs at 170Hz. Below there, the mid-bass drivers start to distort more the lower they go (typical of mid-woofers) so the bottom 3 octaves are all from the L12's. At 100dB, the LS50's might be getting about 25 watts peak or so while the subs will be using 100-150 watts total (maybe) on peaks. At this level, on music, I've never heard any signs of distress or distortion. On movies, where they can go a bit nuts with low bass effects, things in the house rattle before the subs show distress once I got them dialed in (had them up a bit too high at first and, occasionally, a new sub would making a popping noise when it's protection kicked in...that's been solved).
• Total speaker system weight is less than 310 lbs. for all 9 cabinets
• If I wanted to improve upon this, I'd make custom, cardioid subs with Rythmik parts and mains with Raven LineSource ribbons & BG Neo-10 planar mids. This would also need a pair of stereo amps and a digital crossover. Total cost would be about $20K (that system would eviscerate almost any loudspeakers on the planet). About $4K more if I sprung for a DEQX HD-5 instead to do the speaker processing duties.

With my current system, 90% of all audiophiles would be loving it to death. The room itself sounds fantastic so that helps a lot and I've dropped about $1K on audio treatments for it. They've made it even better.

Again, this is a 5.2 home theater with a total system cost of less than $16K (that's absolutely everything, but the TV). It was built over the course of 4 years. There's nothing exotic or ridiculously priced. It's just well, researched equipment buys and some are refurbs with full warranties that saved me a couple $K.

This year, I'll add rear surround speakers and replace the amps on the LCR channels with a Benchmark AHB-2 for the LR's and a Purifi-based, class D mono for the center (Benchmark doesn't make a 100w, mono amp...damn!). The surrounds will be really nice, but I don't expect the amp upgrades to rock my world.

I'm using cheap, ICEpower mono amps from Emotiva for the surrounds and center right now and, in this setting, they sound every bit as good as the Parasound A-23 that's driving the left & right channels.

Rythmik makes fantastic subs for a very fair price. You cannot go wrong with them.

 

[QMuse]

Bass is a big part of my life given that it's my instrument.

I have five LS50's in my home theater. Under the left and right channels, I have a pair of Rythmik L12's stacked: they act both as speaker stands and subs.
View attachment 56528

A few things to consider:

• There is no sub currently on the market near the price that's as good as this one
• I bought one, then another one and then another pair
• Total cost: about $2,300
• The only single sub on the planet that can out do this foursome would be Rythmik's dual 15" driver subs and, may be, those Paradigm behemoths that have 6 drivers. Even then, it won't be by much (up the count to six L12's and I doubt any single sub can compete). A Rythmik dual 15 runs about $2,300 and the Paradigms start at $6,500 - both weigh well over 100 lbs. An L12 is about 50 lbs. I like that it's compact and easy to move.
• Given the size of my basement, this is as much bass as I could possibly need and as much space as I wanted to sacrifice
• For me, it's not about loudness, it's about sound quality. With 1.2 kiloWatts of total power, these will play ungodly loud, but, as shown in the one measurement, the distortion at 30Hz is ridiculously low for a sub (around 2.5% with no SPL given so I'll assume it's around 90dB). Going from one to 4 subs means that each sub can play 12dB lower to attain the same, in-room level. That should reduce the total THD to around 0.7% or so as well as excite much fewer cabinet resonances over all. This means that the four subs together will produce 2.5% THD at a level around 12dB higher. That's scary good.
• The performance you can get from this system is not attainable by any full-range speakers that go for 3 times the price and it's on par with everything available around 10-20 times the price at levels of 100dB or less (the subs can play louder, the LS50's can't really and I'm alright with that). Playing my 5-string bass through this system, the low B note is awe-inspiring.
• I have the LS50's crossover to the subs at 170Hz. Below there, the mid-bass drivers start to distort more the lower they go (typical of mid-woofers) so the bottom 3 octaves are all from the L12's. At 100dB, the LS50's might be getting about 25 watts peak or so while the subs will be using 100-150 watts total (maybe) on peaks. At this level, on music, I've never heard any signs of distress or distortion. On movies, where they can go a bit nuts with low bass effects, things in the house rattle before the subs show distress once I got them dialed in (had them up a bit too high at first and, occasionally, a new sub would making a popping noise when it's protection kicked in...that's been solved).
• Total speaker system weight is less than 310 lbs. for all 9 cabinets
• If I wanted to improve upon this, I'd make custom, cardioid subs with Rythmik parts and mains with Raven LineSource ribbons & BG Neo-10 planar mids. This would also need a pair of stereo amps and a digital crossover. Total cost would be about $20K (that system would eviscerate almost any loudspeakers on the planet). About $4K more if I sprung for a DEQX HD-5 instead to do the speaker processing duties.

With my current system, 90% of all audiophiles would be loving it to death. The room itself sounds fantastic so that helps a lot and I've dropped about $1K on audio treatments for it. They've made it even better.

Again, this is a 5.2 home theater with a total system cost of less than $16K (that's absolutely everything, but the TV). It was built over the course of 4 years. There's nothing exotic or ridiculously priced. It's just well, researched equipment buys and some are refurbs with full warranties that saved me a couple $K.

This year, I'll add rear surround speakers and replace the amps on the LCR channels with a Benchmark AHB-2 for the LR's and a Purifi-based, class D mono for the center (Benchmark doesn't make a 100w, mono amp...damn!). The surrounds will be really nice, but I don't expect the amp upgrades to rock my world.

I'm using cheap, ICEpower mono amps from Emotiva for the surrounds and center right now and, in this setting, they sound every bit as good as the Parasound A-23 that's driving the left & right channels.

Rythmik makes fantastic subs for a very fair price. You cannot go wrong with them.

I fully agree, this indeed is a great sub for the money. Unfortunately not easy to buy in EU.

 

[Filio45]

Unfortunately not easy to buy in EU.

I remember that being the case well over a decade ago, when importing was the only option, and shame to hear it's still difficult.

 

[Bear123]

That's for just the sub though. If you have a 7.1, under the most strenuous scenario, the sub would need to output 117dB at the MLP. For shits and giggles, for a 10.1.24 Atmos setup (max allowed for residential use), the sub would need 121dB.

Unless you are running the subs 6-8 db hot, as most do. For spirited, accurate home theater playback, a pair, or even four, small sealed subs will be woefully inadequate.

 

[SimpleTheater]

Unless you are running the subs 6-8 db hot, as most do. For spirited, accurate home theater playback, a pair, or even four, small sealed subs will be woefully inadequate.

I agree. Four small sealed subs would excel at music reproduction, but when you want the earth to shake you need to go a little deeper. I'm fixated on picking up two FV-18s, just got to get my wallet where my head is at.

 

[DonH56]

Depends on the room size and what you call "spirited"... I have a modest sealed room and my four F12's will play louder than my kids can stand whilst rattling everything in the room. Didn't check with an SPL meter, though ears were popping and stomachs rumbling, so loud enough for us.

 

[Bear123]

Depends on the room size and what you call "spirited"... I have a modest sealed room and my four F12's will play louder than my kids can stand whilst rattling everything in the room. Didn't check with an SPL meter, though ears were popping and stomachs rumbling, so loud enough for us.

I think this, as with many things in audio, depends on ones perspective. With my first decent sub, a PB12-NSD, I was blown away. Upgrading to dual ported 15's, I was even more impressed. Most people would think it was more than anyone ever needs. However, in truth, they were still not accurate on movies at or above -10 MV. Loud, rumbly, amazingly impressive to 99% of people. But still not accurate. Compressing, limiting, and distorting at -10MV on movie LFE effects with subs running hot, as most people run them. You don't realize you aren't experiencing everything on the track until you continue to improve capability. For some it isn't worth it, or a concern. But it takes much more capability than people realize for accurate playback, until you have enough capability for accurate playback. Then you realize your subs were hitting their limits, either with compression, distortion, limiting etc, or a combination. For music, quad L12's will certainly have more SPL than most could ever use...more capability than any pair of speakers outside of high sensitivity compression driver speakers.

For my workout room, the 10" sealed JBL550P will be massive overkill for my background music use. For my main dual purpose system, my dual 18" high excursion pro audio drivers are just right.

 

[Bear123]

I agree. Four small sealed subs would excel at music reproduction, but when you want the earth to shake you need to go a little deeper. I'm fixated on picking up two FV-18s, just got to get my wallet where my head is at.

FV-18's are a fantastic sub. A worthy competitor might be PSA's new low tuned 18, the TV18.

 

[detlev24]

I fully agree, this indeed is a great sub for the money. Unfortunately not easy to buy in EU.

Actually, a few years back, https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/ was importing (mainly, if I recall correctly,) F12-series subwoofers + some DIY-kits and the price incl. delivery to all over Europe was not bad (you wouldn't have saved $$ if self-importing "just" a single unit).

Unfortunately, the demand was not big enough, I guess, since they don't have any Rythmik subwoofers in their online-shop, anymore.

 

[Bhh]

I am the owner of the speaker tested. I received it from Amir on Monday and have been doing listening test this week and started some REW sweeps this afternoon when my wife finally left the house for groceries

I’m only running one sub at the moment and plan to add another soon and despite some serious room modes at 55hz, all I can say is WOW! I can’t imagine a better $500ish upgrade/spend to a decent bookshelf speaker system than this. While the improvement of all genres of music is significant, the enhancement of jazz with the sub is really profound and unexpected.

One thing I didn’t anticline is that since the wife enjoys a little hip hop and other bass heavy music from time, WAF on the acoustics is more than making up for the original “holy shite that thing is big” original response. Super happy and an absolute no brainer for anyone looking to upgrade a bookshelf speaker system, even ones with “good” bass.

 

[jeffhenning]

While a FV18 and a pair of L12's have the same amount of radiating area (Sd), they are two totally different beasts.

A FV18 would be a lousy companion to a KEF LS50. It would work, but the crossover would be too low to get the most out of the KEF.

If all you want is gobs of low end below 80Hz, the FV18 will do that in spades.

Personally, I'm not into the sound of ported subs. You give up fidelity for output. They aren't terrible. They just aren't accurate in the time domain. Not a problem in home theater use, but it is when you are listening to music.

Also, FV18's are both huge and incredibly heavy. Basically, the size of a short fridge. And they are a bit pricey. I'm pretty sure that three L12's would give a single FV18 a run for it's money for less cash and less weight. And, of course, you won't need a hand truck and a friend to install them.

The FV18's are way to big to get in my basement theater.

 

[MZKM]

While a FV18 and a pair of L12's have the same amount of radiating area (Sd), they are two totally different beasts.

A FV18 would be a lousy companion to a KEF LS50. It would work, but the crossover would be too low to get the most out of the KEF.

If all you want is gobs of low end below 80Hz, the FV18 will do that in spades.

Personally, I'm not into the sound of ported subs. You give up fidelity for output. They aren't terrible. They just aren't accurate in the time domain. Not a problem in home theater use, but it is when you are listening to music.

Also, FV18's are both huge and incredibly heavy. Basically, the size of a short fridge. And they are a bit pricey. I'm pretty sure that three L12's would give a single FV18 a run for it's money for less cash and less weight. And, of course, you won't need a hand truck and a friend to install them.

The FV18's are way to big to get in my basement theater.

Why would the crossover need to be lower?

There is nothing stating you can’t make a “musical” ported sub. In fact, most ported subs have less distortion. The SVS PB-12NSD as an example not only has far less distortion than the SB-12NSD, it also has quicker decay, so more musical all around.

Unless due to space constraints, after a certain price point, I see no reason not to choose a well design ported sub over a sealed one

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I need someone to explain to pro and con of ported vs closed differences...
Shooting from the hip , I tend to prefer Closed but it's slowly downing on me that I don't know exactly why ... frankly have never compared the two.. My present subs are ported.

mods: Feel free to take this to a different thread or new one ...

 

[Prana Ferox]

Driving a sub (or any speaker) well below the tuning frequency in a ported enclosure will sound bad and can cause damage, necessitating a high pass filter to avoid.

Ported subs (and speakers) have more complicated output phase that can make them trickier to integrate. Integration of multiple drivers at low frequency is a tricky art regardless.

Huge ports can have resonance frequencies low enough to be concerning, and small ports can have audibly excessive air velocity. A really badly designed ported speaker will leak higher frequencies out the ports, but this isn't common for subs. Sealed boxes don't have these issues, but they're generally not hard to design out.

On the other hand, ported subs -can- get more low-level output for a given cabinet size, as they gain efficiency in the band of the Helmholtz resonance.

So, very generally, a sealed sub will produce output lower, but a ported sub will get more SPL within a band. That assumes similar drivers, enclosures, amplification etc. (Actual driver characteristics can make them better suited to sealed, ported, IB etc applications.) EQ / DSP can make one type behave more like the other.

Anyone who talks fast / slow / tight / loose / musical etc WRT to ported vs sealed is spreading hokum.

 

[Dj7675]

How much spl would 4 of these do at 20hz? I have 2 in opposite corners in a 13x23x8 room and would really be surprised if 4 wouldn’t be enough to hit reference level in a sealed room. I don’t listened at reference level (about -10db) so 2 seems to be enough although I may add a 3rd later. Just curious what the math says 4 would get you in a real room.

 

[DonH56]

Warning: I am not a speaker designer, and my grad acoustics class was decades ago, as was my servo sub design.

Ported subs typically have greater output for the same driver, albeit in a larger cabinet. That means they will have lower distortion for the same output as a comparable sealed design. Integration above port tune is pretty much the same. Around the port tune, the ported design can "chuff" when overdriven, and I suspect that is the source of much of the "ported is worse" feeling. Below port tune, the ported sub rolls off about twice as fast as a sealed design, so you potentially get much more "room gain" at very low frequencies using a sealed sub. But, it has less output to begin with, and sometimes much less around and above the port frequency, so you may or may not "win". There is also the idea that the sealed cabinet reduces distortion by not letting the driver "flap" in free air. There is some truth to that, but a good sub paired with a good amp will do as well. Ditto servo; while I am a big fan of servo (feedback) control and sealed subs, good ones come in either flavor, and you get a lot more output for your money with a ported design.

I am unlikely to go ported, old dogs and all that, but unless it is poorly designed (bad port/driver match, too small a port, etc.) you are unlikely to notice a difference in performance between sealed and ported operated within their limits IME/IMO.

FWIWFM, my four F12's do quite well in my modest room, and have way more output than I can use. I don't have room for larger, and have four not for output (one or two was plenty) but to help manage some obnoxious room modes.

HTH - Don

 

[Dj7675]

Warning: I am not a speaker designer, and my grad acoustics class was decades ago, as was my servo sub design.

Ported subs typically have greater output for the same driver, albeit in a larger cabinet. That means they will have lower distortion for the same output as a comparable sealed design. Integration above port tune is pretty much the same. Around the port tune, the ported design can "chuff" when overdriven, and I suspect that is the source of much of the "ported is worse" feeling. Below port tune, the ported sub rolls off about twice as fast as a sealed design, so you potentially get much more "room gain" at very low frequencies using a sealed sub. But, it has less output to begin with, and sometimes much less around and above the port frequency, so you may or may not "win". There is also the idea that the sealed cabinet reduces distortion by not letting the driver "flap" in free air. There is some truth to that, but a good sub paired with a good amp will do as well. Ditto servo; while I am a big fan of servo (feedback) control and sealed subs, good ones come in either flavor, and you get a lot more output for your money with a ported design.

I am unlikely to go ported, old dogs and all that, but unless it is poorly designed (bad port/driver match, too small a port, etc.) you are unlikely to notice a difference in performance between sealed and ported operated within their limits IME/IMO.

FWIWFM, my four F12's do quite well in my modest room, and have way more output than I can use. I don't have room for larger, and have four not for output (one or two was plenty) but to help manage some obnoxious room modes.

HTH - Don

Thanks for the reply. By getting two of these and putting them in opposing corners it pretty much eliminated the horrible room null at my seating position. One more eventually at some point. I am just surprised of the thought of 4 of these not being enough for HT. Of course I guess “not enough” is all relative and depends on what output you are looking for.

 

[stunta]

I have the LS50's crossover to the subs at 170Hz.

Wouldn't you be able to localize the sound at 80 to 170? Is that not a problem in your case?

Reason I ask is, I too use subs as stands. I have JBL 708Ps sitting on top of Rythmik FM8s (dual 8" drivers). I also have a REL Storm III (10" woofer). Due to a cabling shortage I only have 2 XLRs across the 3 subs (with a splitter) so I am having a hard time deciding how to configure the crossovers. I have a miniDsp 8 channel device so I have a lot of flexibility there with routing and crossovers.

NB: I cannot currently run another cable. It was an installer job and not something I take on by myself.

 

[MZKM]

Wouldn't you be able to localize the sound at 80 to 170? Is that not a problem in your case?

Reason I ask is, I too use subs as stands. I have JBL 708Ps sitting on top of Rythmik FM8s (dual 8" drivers). I also have a REL Storm III (10" woofer). Due to a cabling shortage I only have 2 XLRs across the 3 subs (with a splitter) so I am having a hard time deciding how to configure the crossovers. I have a miniDsp 8 channel device so I have a lot of flexibility there with routing and crossovers.

NB: I cannot currently run another cable. It was an installer job and not something I take on by myself.

He has them literally under the speakers, it’s no more localizable than a 3-way tower speaker with the bass woofer taking over at the same frequency.