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Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

Dj7675

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Not very often would I purchase something knowing it doesn't measure well. There is a tool for every job, and all in all, for what it delivers, the X3500 is pretty good. I have been working on a new living room setup-Revel M106/Rythmik L12 sub. The only sources would be TV (Dish Network), Apple TV, and Roon for music streaming connected to a basic 4K display. I have a seperate HT and a seperate 2 channel listening area. What I was looking for that the X3500 did competently enough:

-Room correction-XT32 with App does a very good job
-Audio sync-For whatever reason our dish and apple tv have different audio delays. Receiver does this will
-Loudness compensation-We don't listen at reference volume in this room. Audyssey DEQ does a very nice job compensating for lower volume listening. In a surround layout, it boosts the surround levels too (which I find very annoying) but in a 2 channel system this isn't an issue
-Amplification-Pretty good amp section. Using in a 2.1 system. 115W into 2 channels (beating spec of 100W). 5W SINAD of 84. Good enough.
-DAC-While 2V output is pretty bad, up to 1.2V is actually plenty good at a SINAD of 96.
-Airplay 2 streaming.. I'm using Airplay 2 for multizone streaming. One device is a sonos and this actually works very well. I'm using Roon to do this which I enjoy using.
-Zone 2 support and amplification-Running a second zone for streaming to outside

I didn't really want a receiver with its size/form factor in our living room... but there just isn't anything that combines so much functionality in 1 box. And the things that matter most... room correction, loudness compensation, ample power and Streaming. All this for $499 delivered with full manufacturer's warranty I think makes it a very good choice. I think when you add the "V" in AV things get more difficult and more expensive. And in the receiver pre/pro the $'s don't seem to get you much more performance in many cases.
 

GeorgeWalk

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Not very often would I purchase something knowing it doesn't measure well. There is a tool for every job, and all in all, for what it delivers, the X3500 is pretty good. I have been working on a new living room setup-Revel M106/Rythmik L12 sub. The only sources would be TV (Dish Network), Apple TV, and Roon for music streaming connected to a basic 4K display. I have a seperate HT and a seperate 2 channel listening area. What I was looking for that the X3500 did competently enough:

-Room correction-XT32 with App does a very good job
-Audio sync-For whatever reason our dish and apple tv have different audio delays. Receiver does this will
-Loudness compensation-We don't listen at reference volume in this room. Audyssey DEQ does a very nice job compensating for lower volume listening. In a surround layout, it boosts the surround levels too (which I find very annoying) but in a 2 channel system this isn't an issue
-Amplification-Pretty good amp section. Using in a 2.1 system. 115W into 2 channels (beating spec of 100W). 5W SINAD of 84. Good enough.
-DAC-While 2V output is pretty bad, up to 1.2V is actually plenty good at a SINAD of 96.
-Airplay 2 streaming.. I'm using Airplay 2 for multizone streaming. One device is a sonos and this actually works very well. I'm using Roon to do this which I enjoy using.
-Zone 2 support and amplification-Running a second zone for streaming to outside

I didn't really want a receiver with its size/form factor in our living room... but there just isn't anything that combines so much functionality in 1 box. And the things that matter most... room correction, loudness compensation, ample power and Streaming. All this for $499 delivered with full manufacturer's warranty I think makes it a very good choice. I think when you add the "V" in AV things get more difficult and more expensive. And in the receiver pre/pro the $'s don't seem to get you much more performance in many cases.

I have an X3500 also. I use it for my home theater. It works well for that. When I want to listen to music, I have good stereo systems for that.
 

Bear123

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Not very often would I purchase something knowing it doesn't measure well. There is a tool for every job, and all in all, for what it delivers, the X3500 is pretty good. I have been working on a new living room setup-Revel M106/Rythmik L12 sub. The only sources would be TV (Dish Network), Apple TV, and Roon for music streaming connected to a basic 4K display. I have a seperate HT and a seperate 2 channel listening area. What I was looking for that the X3500 did competently enough:

-Room correction-XT32 with App does a very good job
-Audio sync-For whatever reason our dish and apple tv have different audio delays. Receiver does this will
-Loudness compensation-We don't listen at reference volume in this room. Audyssey DEQ does a very nice job compensating for lower volume listening. In a surround layout, it boosts the surround levels too (which I find very annoying) but in a 2 channel system this isn't an issue
-Amplification-Pretty good amp section. Using in a 2.1 system. 115W into 2 channels (beating spec of 100W). 5W SINAD of 84. Good enough.
-DAC-While 2V output is pretty bad, up to 1.2V is actually plenty good at a SINAD of 96.
-Airplay 2 streaming.. I'm using Airplay 2 for multizone streaming. One device is a sonos and this actually works very well. I'm using Roon to do this which I enjoy using.
-Zone 2 support and amplification-Running a second zone for streaming to outside

I didn't really want a receiver with its size/form factor in our living room... but there just isn't anything that combines so much functionality in 1 box. And the things that matter most... room correction, loudness compensation, ample power and Streaming. All this for $499 delivered with full manufacturer's warranty I think makes it a very good choice. I think when you add the "V" in AV things get more difficult and more expensive. And in the receiver pre/pro the $'s don't seem to get you much more performance in many cases.

I think this is an excellent summary. I'm all for having accurate tests on equipment like this that hopefully leads to even better engineering on products but, I believe this AVR, even with its less than SOTA measured performance, would provide better sound quality with a bass managed eq setup with subs than the common "audiophile" 2 channel setup without subs or eq. That folks have a separate pure 2.0 channel setup for music, apparently in the quest for sound quality, seems odd. Especially since a bass managed system with well placed dual subs and eq will almost undoubtedly provide superior sound quality to a suboptimal 2.0 channel setup. As you said, 84 dB SINAD isn't exactly state of the art, but likely audibly transparent in the real world, and actually much better than a good handful of more "audiophile" level equipment that has been tested. And the 96 dB of SINAD from the pre-outs up to 1.5 v is better than most external amps I've seen tested.

Also agree with you on DEQ....it makes such a nice difference for low level listening.
 

Promit

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So what AVR would be a clear step up from this Denon, including room correction? The amplifier section seems to measure alright, and the presence of Audyssey XT32 is probably preferable to systems like the Sony ES. The MRX520's DAC is much better but the amps are a problem. I'd like to upgrade but having trouble figuring out what is an unambiguously better AVR within some kind of sane price range.
 

Dj7675

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So what AVR would be a clear step up from this Denon, including room correction? The amplifier section seems to measure alright, and the presence of Audyssey XT32 is probably preferable to systems like the Sony ES. The MRX520's DAC is much better but the amps are a problem. I'd like to upgrade but having trouble figuring out what is an unambiguously better AVR within some kind of sane price range.
Your question is definitely a difficult one. Operating within its limits (1.2v) you get a SINAD of 96 for the DAC and around 85 for the amp section at 5w and xt32 for room correction. All at a street price of around $500-$550. It actually makes it pretty tough to beat in my opinion in regards to value. I still think we have quite a few gaps in AVRs to be tested, but I think we are getting there. I think it could be possible or even likely one of the new Arcam's would do better and have Dirac. I would love to see the Arcam 390 tested as well as one of the new models. And besides the Arcam we really need to have a Denon 4400/4500 tested as well as a 6400/6500/8500 tested to see if performance is better (and how much) than the 3500. I believe someone has already or is sending in an Arcam. I will be sending in a Denon 8500 in the next month or 2 as well.
 

Promit

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I would love to see the Arcam 390 tested as well as one of the new models. And besides the Arcam we really need to have a Denon 4400/4500 tested as well as a 6400/6500/8500 tested to see if performance is better (and how much) than the 3500. I believe someone has already or is sending in an Arcam. I will be sending in a Denon 8500 in the next month or 2 as well.
Yep, I sent him the Arcam in trying to answer this question. Then I found out the Arcam forces a single xover frequency across the entire set of speakers, which makes me want to figuratively choke someone at Harman.
 

Dj7675

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Yep, I sent him the Arcam in trying to answer this question. Then I found out the Arcam forces a single xover frequency across the entire set of speakers, which makes me want to figuratively choke someone at Harman.
Which model of Arcam?
 

Promit

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Which model of Arcam?
The 390, costs a pretty penny just to get to that entry level model. Harman confirmed to me that this specific crossover limitation is common to the entire lineup.

I wish the MRX520's amps didn't measure so poorly. I'm thinking about finding a used one and adding external amplification for some number of channels. Of course that would put any discussion of Atmos to bed, although I haven't decided where I stand there.
 

Dj7675

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The 390, costs a pretty penny just to get to that entry level model. Harman confirmed to me that this specific crossover limitation is common to the entire lineup.

I wish the MRX520's amps didn't measure so poorly. I'm thinking about finding a used one and adding external amplification for some number of channels. Of course that would put any discussion of Atmos to bed, although I haven't decided where I stand there.
Great, thanks for sending it in. Really looking forward to the 390 review as well as the x3600 review. My understanding is the new Arcam’s don’t have the limitations of a single crossover, is that correct?
 

Promit

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Great, thanks for sending it in. Really looking forward to the 390 review as well as the x3600 review. My understanding is the new Arcam’s don’t have the limitations of a single crossover, is that correct?
All I see in the manual for the 860 is the ability to set a different crossover for the height channels in an Atmos layout.
 

Dj7675

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All I see in the manual for the 860 is the ability to set a different crossover for the height channels in an Atmos layout.
That probably wouldn't work for me as well. My surrounds are rated 60hz but in room measure more like 90hz-120hz with Audyssey.
 

ace_xp2

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Some avrs which have variable crossovers mess up the bass reproduction if the crossover is actually varied. What happens is each channel that gets set with a crossover has a copy of it sent to the lfe channel with the low pass applied. Unfortunately the same low pass is applied to each channel so if you've now got say center and surrounds at 12db/octave at 100hz but the left/right at 80 there will be phase issues across the range where the two crossovers interact. Apparently some avrs are doing this correctly now, or at least Audioholics mentioned as much in a video. So if you're after that feature it's worth it to ascertain that a given avr does it correctly.
 

BsdKurt

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Some avrs which have variable crossovers mess up the bass reproduction if the crossover is actually varied. What happens is each channel that gets set with a crossover has a copy of it sent to the lfe channel with the low pass applied. Unfortunately the same low pass is applied to each channel so if you've now got say center and surrounds at 12db/octave at 100hz but the left/right at 80 there will be phase issues across the range where the two crossovers interact. Apparently some avrs are doing this correctly now, or at least Audioholics mentioned as much in a video. So if you're after that feature it's worth it to ascertain that a given avr does it correctly.
On my x3400, I can set the low pass filter for the subwoofer separately and high pass filters for front, center, surround, etc. There are two modes for the subwoofer mode as well:

LFE: "Plays low range and LFE signals of channels set to "Small"
LFE+Main: "Plays low range and LFE signals of all channels"​

Does this imply that Denon is doing this right since this model?
 

ace_xp2

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Sadly doesn't tell me one way or another. Each of those two settings simply decide whether the lfe channel plays the low range of the speakers set to large. So when you set l/r to large you've still got the option to cross them, typically at 60/40hz. It really depends on how the avr deals with the signals it passes to the sub. So long as each main speaker is crossed at the same point, then it won't be a problem, the issue occurs when there's an overlap between. It does seem as though Denon does it right, as per here:
 

jburnham

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just joined because I came across this post and had a practical application question regarding the results Amir posted.

I understand the actual audible effects of are subjective, but given they are what they are, and the DAC performance doesn't match some "higher end" DAC's, what is the best way to set-up this AVR?

By that I mean, all off my inputs are HDMI (PC, DVD, etc) and I am not using any of the coaxial inputs. Is it best to use the DAC in the individual devices and not use the DAC in the Denon? Or will that not matter?

Just curious given Amir's findings the best way to set up the system. Best inputs to the AVR and best signal to give that input.
 

peng

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So, many of you see that review and go "Gah! I will never buy a NAD product!" But is that really fair to the R&D that NAD put into the product? No, I would argue it isn't. You have to understand the holistic picture before you can judge the end product. Amir's review is just one data point at the tail end of the process. I for one am SUPER interested in finding out what compromises and trade-offs NAD made in the development of this product, but we're never gonna get there if our community has such outlandish and entitled expectations from manufacturers who don't even know who we are.

Fair or not, I bought NAD products before and would do it again if necessary, but will never buy that particular product, i.e T758 V3 because it measured poorly relative to the cheap Denon. If it did even 5 dB better it might not concern me but it was just bad period. If despite the much higher THD+N the 758V3 still sound better to you even without Dirac, then that's good for you but may not be to others. I would think most people don't have the luxury to compare different AVRs at home before making a decision. Amir's site provides a viable option for people to decide just by comparing specs and measurements. The going by ears/brains is great, but again it is not always easy to do a fair comparison, and in the end going the subjective way can be a hit and miss thing, while number's don't lie, and are based on known science.
 

Pepperjack

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So I have only read through this to page three but had a newbie question. When you guys are talking about major issues/ distortion related to the dac- is that the same thing as when I use an external integrated amplifier to power the lr and then connect via rca cables to the rca inputs on the Denon?

min that case there would be really major issues?
 

_Bass

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Great review amirm as always :) !

I do not necessarily understand all the measurements in the review. Can someone please answer me in laymen terms:

1) if I use the AVR for 50/50 music and home theater, listen about 70db loud (the volume of my avr says 55-60 on the Absolute Scale) from 8ft distance, am I likely to witness the "bad" behavior of the 3500H? I think my AVR uses 1-2W to power the speakers for that volume.

2) does any of this change if I engage DEQ? I truly believe DEQ deploys the equal loudness curve so to me is necessary, just using it with -15 offset for music and 0 for movies

3) I am considering getting active speakers for the fronts -- either jbl lsr 305 or genelec 8030C, will that alleviate the AVR in addition to already sending everything below 80Hz to my subs? I do not understand the 1 volt and 1.2 volt thing, but are you guys saying that the preouts of the AVR will not be able to feed genelec 8030C with an RCA-to-XRL cables?
 
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