• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Rythmik L12 Subwoofer Review

stunta

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2018
Messages
1,155
Likes
1,401
Location
Boston, MA
I see a lot of posts stating this review isn't useful. I am sure there is a technical reason behind this view which I probably won't understand. However, I am able to understand the frequency response curve. So my question is, wouldn't this type of review, at the very least be able to expose poorly designed subwoofers?

Thanks
 

hardisj

Major Contributor
Reviewer
Joined
Jul 18, 2019
Messages
2,907
Likes
13,914
Location
North Alabama
I see a lot of posts stating this review isn't useful. I am sure there is a technical reason behind this view which I probably won't understand. However, I am able to understand the frequency response curve. So my question is, wouldn't this type of review, at the very least be able to expose poorly designed subwoofers?

Thanks

I think it's useful. Others also want there to a max SPL test to accompany this data so we know the practical output limits of the subwoofer(s). I agree that information would be useful. IMHO, it would also be beneficial to explore what the different settings allow and how they show a measurable difference.
 

Sancus

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
2,926
Likes
7,636
Location
Canada
I see a lot of posts stating this review isn't useful. I am sure there is a technical reason behind this view which I probably won't understand. However, I am able to understand the frequency response curve. So my question is, wouldn't this type of review, at the very least be able to expose poorly designed subwoofers?

Very poorly designed, sure. However people looking to buy a sub care primarily about max SPL at the sub's lowest frequencies, as that's where most limitations lie. Without a test that exposes that, a review is much less useful than the regular speaker reviews.

Since they are less useful but cost the same amount of time as a speaker review and also seem to involve extra effort due to the weight, it doesn't seem logical to do them regularly.
 

suttondesign

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 4, 2019
Messages
733
Likes
1,310
Location
Bellingham, WA
Personally, I'm not troubled not knowing max SPL. For a large room, a sub with a 10" or 8" woofer will not play very loud without straining, yet the same sub in a small room (particularly a well-designed 10") would work well, and 2 would be ideal to deal with nodes in a smaller room.

For a large room, 2 10" subs could also do very well if they are quality subs, but 12"-15" is obviously preferred because they move more air without strain.

I know from experience that a well-designed 15" sub, while cool in principle like a V-6, is overkill for a medium-sized room of 2000-2500 cu. ft. just like a V-6 in a front-wheel-drive small car is a recipe for massive torque steer. I went back to a 12" Rythmik recently for my 2100-cu-ft room, and it is ample and very deep, filling in below about 55 hz.

I am more interested in frequency response and distortion measured at a somewhat-loud output level. I was heartened to see the deep extension and modest distortion of the base-model Rythmik 12", though I was not surprised.
 

Sancus

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
2,926
Likes
7,636
Location
Canada
I am more interested in frequency response and distortion measured at a somewhat-loud output level. I was heartened to see the deep extension and modest distortion of the base-model Rythmik 12", though I was not surprised.

I can sort of see the value of distortion(even though it must be very high to be audible in this frequency range) but I feel like almost all subs will require extreme volume levels to significantly distort, well beyond what's in this test. Especially if distortion isn't measured below 40hz or whatever.

I don't really understand the desire to see frequency response. I've seen reviews from at least 10 different brands of subs and I've never seen one that deviated substantially from "reasonably flat with a gradual rolloff to the low end". Sometimes the ported ones have weird behaviour between 100-200hz, I guess.

And even if there were, since directivity isn't really a concern and the entire sub frequency range requires measurements and heavy EQ to approach flat in any normal room, the anechoic frequency response seems pretty irrelevant. Unless I'm missing something.
 

Prana Ferox

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
931
Likes
1,924
Location
NoVA, USA
The major signs of a poorly designed sub that are going to show up on FR are resonances and port noise, both of which are going to require driving the box to high SPL. If you're pushing a sub to mechanical distress it's more a sign the signal chain is missing an appropriate high-pass, which is relevant if the bass management is built in to the box.

I wouldn't say this review isn't useful. But it's not as useful for evaluating a potential speaker purchase as a full-range speaker. The frequency response below Schroeder is so dependent on your room, and the placements of sub and listener within it, that 'flat' response will always require EQ. So pure FR isn't as useful as knowing how much headroom there is for boost.
 

stunta

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2018
Messages
1,155
Likes
1,401
Location
Boston, MA
What is high SPL? How high in db at what distance? Max SPL seems pointless for typical domestic use case.
 

Sancus

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
2,926
Likes
7,636
Location
Canada
What is high SPL? How high in db at what distance? Max SPL seems pointless for typical domestic use case.

How so? There are plenty of 10-12" subs that won't do much past 85db at 20hz, which isn't enough headroom for some types of music and is nowhere near enough for HT. And that's assuming you don't care about the region below 20hz -- many people using subs DO care about that region, quite a bit.
 

Prana Ferox

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
931
Likes
1,924
Location
NoVA, USA
115db peak at the listening point is THX reference. Remember this is for movies, where you're more likely to have big peaky low-frequency sound effects, and again that's after room gain and EQ effects on headroom.
 

stunta

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2018
Messages
1,155
Likes
1,401
Location
Boston, MA
How so? There are plenty of 10-12" subs that won't do much past 85db at 20hz, which isn't enough headroom for some types of music and is nowhere near enough for HT. And that's assuming you don't care about the region below 20hz -- many people using subs DO care about that region, quite a bit.

That is slightly tangential. Your statements are more related to minimum SPL. But I agree with your overall point - depending on use case, perhaps there are well established minimum SPL requirements that a subwoofer needs to meet.
 

Kvalsvoll

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Audio Company
Joined
Apr 25, 2019
Messages
887
Likes
1,653
Location
Norway
I see a lot of posts stating this review isn't useful. I am sure there is a technical reason behind this view which I probably won't understand. However, I am able to understand the frequency response curve. So my question is, wouldn't this type of review, at the very least be able to expose poorly designed subwoofers?

Thanks

If you understand enough to ask the question, you can understand the answer, provided I - or someone else - are able to write it in a way that is possible to understand. So if it is not possible to understand, it is my fault.

First; the frequency response gives some information on quality and what frequency range can be expected to be useful. Roll-off at low and upper end, smoothness reveals resonances. But this type of subwoofer is almost impossible to make so bad that it shows significant faults in frequency response. It is a driver in a square box. For ported boxes, it could reveal a very bad tuning, or port resonances.

It would be more useful if it also showed phase, group delay and excess phase. But to screw up this, you would need something like what I make - with acoustic loading very different from the simple sealed box, it is indeed possible to end up with something bad, it is no longer a simple minimum phase system, there may be resonances.

The established way to present this is to do frequency response measurements at different spl levels, where you can see where compression starts, and at which frequencies. This gives useful information about maximum output capacity.

Distortion measurements are useful, like the one shown (1. page).

But all those graphs - compression, distortion - must have a reference, so that they can be compared to measurements of a different subwoofer. They must specify spl, at some given distance, in some known acoustic surroundings. The standard here is spl at 2m distance in 2pi surroundings. If the measurement is done normalised to 1m, that is fine - just subtract 6dB to compare. If they are 4pi, just add 6dB to compare. But this needs to be specified and calibrated.

Maximum output level is also a standardized measurement where distortion limits are defined with more distortion allowed for low order components, and more strict limits for higher order. This is specified in the CEA2010 standard.

Frequency response says nothing about how low the subwoofer can play, because at low frequencies you need enough output to make it useful, at 10Hz you need around 100dB just to be able to hear it (if I remember correctly).

Directivity is not important for anything you can buy in a ordinary shop, they are all omni. Some varations of dipole exist in the more exotic market, and some my own designs are acoustically large at mid and upper bass frequencies, and thus have some sort of directivity.

The in-room response of a subwoofer will be mostly determined by room and position of the subwoofer and the listener. Any high-performance bass-system need eq to give the best possible performance. Which means that the frequency response of the subwoofer itself is not important, because the system must be corrected anyway. Then you are left with maximum output capacity as the most important criteria for dimensioning your bass-system. And to be able to choose between subwoofers and determine how many you need, you need comparable numbers. You guess how loud you need down to what frequency, estimate room gain, and then you fill in enough capacity to meet this requirement.

How loud and how low you need depends on what you intend to play, and how you play it. There is a huge difference between playing movies at reference to bass support in a small room for classical music.
 

Francis Vaughan

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 6, 2018
Messages
933
Likes
4,697
Location
Adelaide Australia
One issue with the reviews done by Keith Yates was that they were of very high end devices. Two were $10,000. His review didn't show up any problems, and was more a charaterisation of their abilities. For the money spent on the sub-woofers he reviewed you would be expecting SOTA. But the market is awash with HT products. There is real value in reviewing devices that are actually affordable by the masses. I would suspect that at the price points most people are looking, there are many flaws to be found. Just like AVRs. In particular I bet power specifications are overstated, systems subject to shutdown for thermal reasons, ports chuff, boxes rattle, plus all manner of unwelcome flaws due to over-enthusiastic value engineering. Small systems may be deliberately engineered with peaky frequency responses to give the illusion of bass. There are lost of reasons why sub-woofers - as a total package - can be less than perfect.
But, like AVRs, I suspect that the flaws will live in things like power delivery. Not just compression, but poor actual power capabilities.
For people trying to integrate a HT setup, there is a lot of potentially useful information to be had. This includes more esoteric things, like group delay.
A big question for many enthusiasts will be how many SW to buy. One isn't really enough. Two smaller ones should provide a smoother end result if properly set up. Four gets you a further step up, but not as big as one to two. Balancing the economics of this isn't going to be easy. Real life power delivery and value for money are likely key to most people.
The actual basic frequency response at a nominal power delivery is a long way down the list of useful parameters. The abilities of the Klippel are mostly wasted here. The wavelengths are so long that you could characterise the entire radiant field perfectly with half a dozen measurement points. Hundreds are just wasting time.
I do wonder whether a microphone designed for higher sound pressure levels might be useful.
 
Last edited:

Bear123

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 27, 2019
Messages
796
Likes
1,370
I've always wondered how svs compares vs rhytmik and rsl speedwoofer and rel which seems to be the "best" for music
REL is *far* from the best for music. They make mediocre subs at best. Just very good at marketing to audiophiles, so they have garnered that reputation. Just as B&W has an incredibly strong audiophile reputation as a great speaker, while most actually are quite poor. Any comparably priced Rhythmic sub is far superior to any REL in every metric.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,584
Likes
239,366
Location
Seattle Area
@amirm
Can this be adapted for your purposes. At 1 ton it lifts up to nearly 8 feet. And you can roll it from place to place.
https://www.amazon.com/Torin-Engine...ds=engine+cherry+picker&qid=1584832825&sr=8-4

I'm sure I've seen pictures of your garage setup, but don't recall if an engine lift like this would function around the area or not.
I have an engine lift already. The problem is the Klippel platform that the speaker sits on is 5 foot high. So can't use such a lift.

What I was thinking of was some kind of winch hung from the ceiling. Or a pulley system.
 

Rick Sykora

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Messages
3,593
Likes
7,262
Location
Stow, Ohio USA
@amirm I was wondering whether the Klippel distortion report for a subwoofer can be usefully compared to the Klippel distortion report for other typical (full range) speakers?

More specifically, in my testing, I would not expect to be able to compare the distortion values unless the test were done under the same conditions and using the same type of test. Does this still hold true or not?
 

Poseidons Voice

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Messages
48
Likes
148
Kvalsvoll,

Your post was excellent and details exactly the metrics that are important to understand and illustrate in order to show the differences between subwoofer designs from different competing manufacturers.

Best,
Anand
 

onslash

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
61
Likes
58
REL is *far* from the best for music. They make mediocre subs at best. Just very good at marketing to audiophiles, so they have garnered that reputation. Just as B&W has an incredibly strong audiophile reputation as a great speaker, while most actually are quite poor. Any comparably priced Rhythmic sub is far superior to any REL in every metric.
Have you actually tried and compare tho. I know they're overpriced but i haven't directly compared as rhytmik is not available here
 

LTig

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
5,807
Likes
9,512
Location
Europe
Personally, I'm not troubled not knowing max SPL. For a large room, a sub with a 10" or 8" woofer will not play very loud without straining, yet the same sub in a small room (particularly a well-designed 10") would work well, and 2 would be ideal to deal with nodes in a smaller room.
Well, our living room has roughly 50 square m and is 2.64 m high. Acoustic is quite dry. Still my single Genelec 7060B sub with 10" driver and 120 W power amp can play louder than I need, with both music and movies. Not forgetting a complaining wife in the adjacent room ...:rolleyes:
 
Top Bottom