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Review and Measurements of Holo Audio May --- Probably the best discrete R2R DAC

Spocko

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Sidetrack a bit, do you have a measurement of the Spring or spring 2 vs. the may and terminator to show?
This truly begs the question of how all 3 would do in a DBX test - not so much which is better but rather if listeners can hear a difference.
 

Darkweb

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I actually disagree here in the same way a mechanical watch holds value for some folks.

Likewise the actual internals of this thing are a sight to behold.

Now is it $4,000 good? That, I can't say, seeing as it's the best R2R I've seen in all respects by a mile.

I agree with what you say in principle, but the primary goal of someone buying this isn't outright sound quality, but this brings it(and competes with Dac chips), and then the luxury furnishing expected of a device in this price bracket.
Thank you.

If all that were left were the latest Topping DS chip DAC built to the lowest cost in a suicide net factory, this hobby would be pretty stale.

There wouldn’t be anyone left to send to the guillotine, and you’d only be arguing over whose speakers measured the flattest.

BORING!
 

Spocko

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Thank you.

If all that were left were the latest Topping DS chip DAC built to the lowest cost in a suicide net factory, this hobby would be pretty stale.

There wouldn’t be anyone left to send to the guillotine, and you’d only be arguing over whose speakers measured the flattest.

BORING!
It certainly appears that the new Topping D90 DAC has hit this threshold. Obviously, Holo Audio and others can come up with an R2R that measure above 130 SINAD at some point, but then we are just paying for amazing feats of engineering skill (like those high complication watches) rather than anything we can hear.
 

Spocko

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Looks consistent with expectations laid by Wolfx at the beginning of this thread! Nice to see the production unit justifies the excitement. This is engineering jewelry without a doubt, and is an excuse for me to buy more transparent speakers with more transparent electronics (Benchmark AHB2 + LA4) so I can see if there's an audible difference between this R2R accomplishment and the Topping D90 or one of the Matrix DACs. Or... I can continue saving up for an air-cooled Porsche 911 or that custom Gibson Les Paul I've been dreaming about...
 

BDWoody

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Or... I can continue saving up for an air-cooled Porsche 911...

Don't you wish you had picked up one or two of those back when they could be had without much saving required?

I remember when they were practically giving 912's away...and the 911's weren't much higher.

They are true classics...
 

barrows

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I wish someone would measure the May in NOS/DSD mode with oversampling to DSD 256/512 via either Roon or HQPlayer, that is what I ma really interested in. I do not care much about the PCM conversion.
 

Spocko

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Don't you wish you had picked up one or two of those back when they could be had without much saving required?

I remember when they were practically giving 912's away...and the 911's weren't much higher.

They are true classics...
YES, when the 996 was first released, the dealer tried to convince me to pick up one of many lightly used 993s he had in stock - stupid young guy I was, I remember completely ignoring everything he said about the 993.
 

Spocko

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I wish someone would measure the May in NOS/DSD mode with oversampling to DSD 256/512 via either Roon or HQPlayer, that is what I ma really interested in. I do not care much about the PCM conversion.
Assuming it measures "just OK", what are the alternatives you would be considering for $4,000 (or less)?
 

barrows

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Assuming it measures "just OK", what are the alternatives you would be considering for $4,000 (or less)?

None, i already have a very, very good DIY DAC with ESS 9038, especially optimized for DSD 256 playback. Only DACs I would consider purchasing would be those with potentially even better performance. The May is one of those. Also the Mola Mola (Tambaqui or Makua). Jussi of Signalyist/HQPlayer has measured the Holo Audio Spring, and found better performance with DSD than PCM, I would not be surprised to see slightly better performance with May with DSD vs. PCM. With DSD 256 input of course. I would like to see a little cleaner multitone, and a little better linearity.
 
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YSC

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None, i already have a very, very good DIY DAC with ESS 9038, especially optimized for DSD 256 playback. Only DACs I would consider purchasing would be those with potentially even better performance. The May is one of those. Also the Mola Mola (Tambaqui or Makua). Jussi of Signalyist/HQPlayer has measured the Holo Audio Spring, and found better performance with DSD than PCM, I would not be surprised to see slightly better performance with May with DSD vs. PCM. With DSD 256 input of course. I would like to see a little cleaner multitone, and a little better linearity.
Then you better off save up for a 993, I have one friend keep lend me his and it’s a phenomenal car giving you great handling yet need proper skills to drive. As impressive the holo audio spring and May are I bet the audible improvement from a proper 9038 dac is minimal unless you enjoy nos mode with native pcm decoding then there’s audible difference
 

barrows

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Then you better off save up for a 993, I have one friend keep lend me his and it’s a phenomenal car giving you great handling yet need proper skills to drive. As impressive the holo audio spring and May are I bet the audible improvement from a proper 9038 dac is minimal unless you enjoy nos mode with native pcm decoding then there’s audible difference

I have built about 6 ESS based DACs, my current one is a no compromise 9038 build. I also am working on a discrete DSD DAC based on the DSC-2 approach. Both of the best DACs I have ever heard use discrete conversion schemes. See Bruno Putzeys’ comments on why he chose to go discrete on the Tambaqui DAC in the review thread on this forum. I suspect he is right, the Tambaqui is the best DAC I have ever heard, with a combination of both resolution, and ease of presentation that I find very rare. Hence, I am very interested in any DAC which might perform that way. I also am very interested in over sampling in software, where the power of a computer can be used to run much more powerful oversampling approaches than is possible in a small DAC chip (see HQPlayer). The May in NOS DSD mode may be a possible solution, with DSD 256 input from HQPlayer. I am not interested in the traditional style NOS DAC for PCM with low rate input, there is way to much compromise in resolution there.
So, I do hear the difference between, say, the Tambaqui, and an ESS based DAC, it is subtle, in a sense (if one is just looking at SINAD, or just considering noise floor, etc) but on another level, the difference is very significant. It may be that the delta sigma artifacts, “idle tones”, for example, which Mr. Putzeys mentions, are actually audible artifacts which disturb the listening process.
No doubt the ESS 9038 is very good, I am just looking for that next level.
 

Tks

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I have built about 6 ESS based DACs, my current one is a no compromise 9038 build. I also am working on a discrete DSD DAC based on the DSC-2 approach. Both of the best DACs I have ever heard use discrete conversion schemes. See Bruno Putzeys’ comments on why he chose to go discrete on the Tambaqui DAC in the review thread on this forum. I suspect he is right, the Tambaqui is the best DAC I have ever heard, with a combination of both resolution, and ease of presentation that I find very rare. Hence, I am very interested in any DAC which might perform that way. I also am very interested in over sampling in software, where the power of a computer can be used to run much more powerful oversampling approaches than is possible in a small DAC chip (see HQPlayer). The May in NOS DSD mode may be a possible solution, with DSD 256 input from HQPlayer. I am not interested in the traditional style NOS DAC for PCM with low rate input, there is way to much compromise in resolution there.
So, I do hear the difference between, say, the Tambaqui, and an ESS based DAC, it is subtle, in a sense (if one is just looking at SINAD, or just considering noise floor, etc) but on another level, the difference is very significant. It may be that the delta sigma artifacts, “idle tones”, for example, which Mr. Putzeys mentions, are actually audible artifacts which disturb the listening process.
No doubt the ESS 9038 is very good, I am just looking for that next level.

Look no further than the 4499 from AKM. Completely new design from their prior chips.
 

mansr

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It may be that the delta sigma artifacts, “idle tones”, for example, which Mr. Putzeys mentions, are actually audible artifacts which disturb the listening process.
Idle tones are largely a problem of the past, but if they do occur, they are in the megahertz range. If you suspect idle tones, check with a spectrum analyser.
 

barrows

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Tks and mansr, have you listened to the Tambaqui in a very good system context? I know this is ASR, but here I am confident that this DAC should have the respect of anyone who takes a look at Amir's measurements of it. But, I like to listen to music, and I have listened o music on the Tambaqui, and it is very special. I would suggest that when you get a chance you have a listen to it, and then get back to me.
I am interested in the 4499 though... unlike previous recent AKM chips it is current output, right? I will have a look.
I do really like my ESS 9038 DAC, but it does not quite give me the same response I had with the Tambaqui (or with the discrete DSD converter in the DSC-2 I am working with) but that could be down to output stage design as well, I very much realize the importance of analog stages.

I know the Purifi team has suggested that they feel DAC chip design is stagnant, and that they would like to design a chip themselves using new approaches, but I suspect it would be very hard for them to get the resources together for that... maybe not though, they have a rally sharp team with a lot of experience in both high end audio and chip development.
 

barrows

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What does that have to do with how sigma-delta modulators work?

Huh? Oh, OK, I see where you are going with this. As I mentioned in my post, I had a very good listening experience with the Tambaqui DAC. If you read the designer's comments on why he chose to go with a discrete converter rather than a DSM chip, you will have the answer to that question. Those comments are here:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tambaqui-dac-and-streamer-review.10770/page-5

The measurements are on the first page if you have not seen them. The mutlitone test and linearity look to be the best ever measured at this sit. For me, I listened to the DAC and think it is something special.

Of course this design was initially done in 2013, so DSM chips may have improved since then.
 
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majingotan

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I know the Purifi team has suggested that they feel DAC chip design is stagnant, and that they would like to design a chip themselves using new approaches, but I suspect it would be very hard for them to get the resources together for that... maybe not though, they have a rally sharp team with a lot of experience in both high end audio and chip development.

It's a good way to market that custom DAC chip design for audiophools and charge 20x more, just make sure it gets >130 dB SNR and >120 dB SINAD at full scale. That pretty much sounds like Mola Mola Tambaqui to me. Then again, this is the Holo May DAC thread, but I'm super hoping that Amir or Wolf can get the Kitsune Edition for measurements as it's 1K USD more for some fancy wiring, fancy caps and transformers
 
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