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Genelec 8341A SAM™ Studio Monitor Review

QMuse

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I agree. So are speakers. Can't you hear differences through them. Can't you converse in a crowded room or near a waterfall?



You speak of speaker or room masking as if it were this big blanket blob. There are so many types of distortion.

Your analogies are completely off. Single tone decay caused by room will mask single tone decay caused by cabinet resonance.

Harmonics generated by distortion of the single tone played by speaker will mask the same harmonics generated by electronics. Same will happen if you measure IMD, which is the same thing but some more harmonis are generated in that scenario.

No offense, but i think you should read some basic stuff first before posting so much here.
 

tuga

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tuga

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Your analogies are completely off. Single tone decay caused by room will mask single tone decay caused by cabinet resonance.

Really? I find that surprising.

Harmonics generated by distortion of the single tone played by speaker will mask the same harmonics generated by electronics. Same will happen if you measure IMD, which is the same thing but some more harmonis are generated in that scenario.

I find that even more surprising.

No offense, but i think you should read some basic stuff first before posting so much here.

None taken.
 

tuga

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But you still think you can question Toole's work, right?

I question some of his conclusions when he uses a sample of a handful or untrained listeners.

On the other hand I find that he is often not as assertive about some of his findings as his readers.
 

Frank Dernie

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What exactly do you think I do not understand and what technically incorrect information do you think I added?

Btw, what exactly is your opinion with audibility of cabinet resonance and it's relation to CSD graph? So far I have only understood that some unidentified friend of yours, who is supposedly an exprt in the cabinet resonance matter, have told you an industry secret which you cannot disclose here and you are issuing some vague warnings instead. Am I missing something?

P.S. please keep it as technical as you'd like, I have an EE background and pretty solid education afterwards.
Did you learn about resonance and realise that a voice coil driving a loudspeaker cone is not resonance?
 

ctrl

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Thanks for that! Do you have a link? I can't seem to find it.
Unfortunately there is no link, the review only appeared in the magazine (print and pdf).
Therefore I cannot publish it for copyright reasons - I don't want to get Amir into trouble.
 

Frank Dernie

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Certainly! But unfortunately it doesn't seem evidence for it exists publicly, though apparently it does privately.
I haven't seen the recent stuff made public, but it is nothing new and there is a thread showing loads of the old stuff.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rch-department-loudspeaker-development.11556/
Plus things like the paper KEF released showing the difference in approach to making cabinet talk innocuous from that time to the more recent FEA methods.
It seems strange to me that there are members of this forum get outraged by DACs and headphone amplifiers that are orders of magnitude better than they need to be for listening to music yet others seem content to accept that gross speaker defects may be inaudible.
 

thewas

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As far as I know there are so many papers measuring and modeling loudspeaker cabinet radiation, but unfortunately none really did testing about the audibility under controlled testing, here are some exemplary:
https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn...Hp/b14777bce5cef136a6ab7c58a36b60fc/16881.pdf
https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/downloads/qacoustics/Concept500_white_paper.pdf
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8d36/0f109398f904113a6aff2dd061aaf9443cba.pdf
http://www.kef.com/uploads/files/THE_REFERENCE/REF_White_Paper_preview_path_200514.pdf
https://us.kef.com/pub/media/documents/rseries/rseries2018-white-paper.pdf
https://www.shop.us.kef.com/pub/media/wysiwyg/documents/ls50/ls50_white_paper.pdf

Karl Heinz Fink of FinkTeam who designs loudspeakers for companies like Heco, Magnat, Mission, Q Acoustics, Tannoy, Yamaha and more claims that such parasitic radiation of side walls is clearly audible and suggests as an easy test to place a heavy book on the top of a mediocre loudspeaker, but I have never done such test yet under controller conditions and would be worried if the influence of the baffle and edge change wouldn't be rather audible.
 

QMuse

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Did you learn about resonance and realise that a voice coil driving a loudspeaker cone is not resonance?

Of course it is. Though for you it may be easier to comprehend it when driver is working as a microphone, acoustically coupled by sound source so voltage is induced in the coil. It's like stating that electromotor and generator are not the same thing. ;)

And guess what, water moleculles in your food also resonate when you put it into the MW owen, no matter they are EM coupled. :D
 

QMuse

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As far as I know there are so many papers measuring and modeling loudspeaker cabinet radiation, but unfortunately none really did testing about the audibility under controlled testing, here are some exemplary:
https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn...Hp/b14777bce5cef136a6ab7c58a36b60fc/16881.pdf
https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/downloads/qacoustics/Concept500_white_paper.pdf
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8d36/0f109398f904113a6aff2dd061aaf9443cba.pdf
http://www.kef.com/uploads/files/THE_REFERENCE/REF_White_Paper_preview_path_200514.pdf
https://us.kef.com/pub/media/documents/rseries/rseries2018-white-paper.pdf
https://www.shop.us.kef.com/pub/media/wysiwyg/documents/ls50/ls50_white_paper.pdf

Karl Heinz Fink of FinkTeam who designs loudspeakers for companies like Heco, Magnat, Mission, Q Acoustics, Tannoy, Yamaha and more claims that such parasitic radiation of side walls is clearly audible and suggests as an easy test to place a heavy book on the top of a mediocre loudspeaker, but I have never done such test yet under controller conditions and would be worried if the influence of the baffle and edge change wouldn't be rather audible.

I suggest you try this simple experiment: take a whiskey glass half-full of water, crank your speaker to your usual loudness, put the glass on top of your speaker and watch for the vibrations. I would be surprised they woud be visible at all. Now take your grill and watch your woofer. It vibrates, right?

So, do you still think cabinet resonance is an issue with modern speakers? :D

P.S. you can of course use whiskey instead of water. ;)
 

Frank Dernie

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Of course it is. Though for you it may be easier to comprehend it when driver is working as a microphone, acoustically coupled by sound source so voltage is induced in the coil. It's like stating that electromotor and generator are not the same thing. ;)

And guess what, water moleculles in your food also resonate when you put it into the MW owen, no matter they are EM coupled. :D
:facepalm:
Yes you confirm you do not understand resonance. If you are so determined to remain wrong, fine.
I have finished with you.
 

tuga

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I suggest you try this simple experiment: take a whiskey glass half-full of water, crank your speaker to your usual loudness, put the glass on top of your speaker and watch for the vibrations. I would be surprised they woud be visible at all. Now take your grill and watch your woofer. It vibrates, right?

So, do you still think cabinet resonance is an issue with modern speakers? :D

P.S. you can of course use whiskey instead of water. ;)

Might be interesting to lay the speaker on its side. The top is usually the smallest panel.
 

thewas

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So, do you still think cabinet resonance is an issue with modern speakers? :D
On my small and very well designed and damped KEF LS50 enclosures I am sure its not an issue :D, but I can't automatically generalise that to every speaker, can for example image a cheap thin MDF floorstander without internal bracing to have some significant side wall vibrations when turned loud, otherwise no loudspeaker manufacturer (also from the Harman group) would spend money and material for those internal reinforcements.
 

Frank Dernie

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Karl Heinz Fink of FinkTeam who designs loudspeakers for companies like Heco, Magnat, Mission, Q Acoustics, Tannoy, Yamaha and more claims that such parasitic radiation of side walls is clearly audible and suggests as an easy test to place a heavy book on the top of a mediocre loudspeaker, but I have never done such test yet under controller conditions and would be worried if the influence of the baffle and edge change wouldn't be rather audible.
I know they do lots of work on this.
I haven't tried the book but I have tried a sandbag.
 

QMuse

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:facepalm:
Yes you confirm you do not understand resonance. If you are so determined to remain wrong, fine.
I have finished with you.

Unfortunately it is you who doesn't understand the concept of resonance. Shift the frequency a little up or down and resonance will stop, with H2O moleculles and with driver membrain as well.

But ok, as you weren't able to produce any valid argument nor to quote any valid research to support your theory I agree that further discussion is futile.
 

andreasmaaan

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I don't know exactly what their limits are. They measure the driver movement and compare with the input signal to create an error function to invert and apply. They measure, or estimate using their own method, the safe thermal and mechanical limits of the drivers to prevent damage when the correction is large. The correction is below 200 Hz so the crossover shouldn't matter.
There are speakers they classify as unsuitable. I know for some that is because the bass unit isn't exposed for their laser measurement device, maybe there are other reasons too.
Neither of the speakers I use with my Devialet have a SAM profile :(
The bit I don't "get" is how it works to reduce the bass -3dB point on a reflex loaded speaker.

Thanks @Frank Dernie. I still find the phase-correction without pre-echo claim pretty puzzling. Might have to look up the patents to find out what they're doing there.

My understanding of its operation with reflex-loaded woofers is simply that they get pushed quite hard at low levels. It's all that possibly could be happening, right?
 

QMuse

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.. but I can't automatically generalise that to every speaker, can for example image a cheap thin MDF floorstander without internal bracing to have some significant side wall vibrations when turned loud, otherwise no loudspeaker manufacturer (also from the Harman group) would spend money and material for those internal reinforcements.

Oh, for sure - speaker like that may have so much vibrations it will be crawling all over your desk before finally falling to the floor. :D

But I was assuming we were talking about modern quality speakers, not some junk that is barely able to produce sound.
 

thewas

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But I was assuming we were talking about modern quality speakers, not some junk that is barely able to produce sound.
The interesting question is where the border between those two, when is it good enough to be not audible and when it that border exceeded. :)
 
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