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I have a confession

LeftCoastTim

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I do not have golden ears.

My hearing is normal for my age. I can hear up to 16kHz. I don't have tinnitus.

To me, there is no music above 18kHz. I noticed that even when I could hear 20kHz (back when 128kbps MP3s were all the rage).

This means all the high res stuff is lost on me. 44.1kHz is good enough!

I can barely, barely hear -75dB signal when 0dB is played at 85dBA SPL (thread here).

So if my amp or DAC is adding distortions, which has SINAD under -70dB, I probably couldn't hear it. And if that distortion is 2nd harmonic (one octave higher), there is no way I'm going to notice that at all. Besides, the most beautiful thing about bells and harpsichords are the harmonics.

That means 24 bits is lost on me, 16 bits is overkill, and 12 bits is good enough!

What all that above means that I can use "consumer grade" DACs, power amps, and be happy. Sure I have money to spend on things that perform better than -70dB SINAD, but unless the "cheap stuff" is broken some how, it's just psychological safety.

Heck, at 70dB, 12 bits, LP records would sound great!


What I DO notice, though is frequency response. If a speaker or headphone has a +3dB hump somewhere (in fact, anywhere), my non-golden ears WILL notice it.

I also hear 60Hz hum. I go eliminating those with a vengeance.

Oh, and room modes. They are very annoying.

And knowing what I can hear let me focus on spending money on things that I can hear. Like good speakers. Subwoofer to fill in the bottom end and DSP to correct room modes at the listening position.

And I spend many hours just listening to music. Youtube is so great for finding new stuff. And random stuff.

Thanks ASR for letting me gain all this knowledge, direct my $$$ and attention to the important things, and enjoy high quality audio. These days even watching Disney movies with my little ones is a joyful auditory experience.

Good sound is Good.
 

LTig

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I do not have golden ears.

My hearing is normal for my age. I can hear up to 16kHz. I don't have tinnitus.

To me, there is no music above 18kHz. I noticed that even when I could hear 20kHz (back when 128kbps MP3s were all the rage).

This means all the high res stuff is lost on me. 44.1kHz is good enough!

I can barely, barely hear -75dB signal when 0dB is played at 85dBA SPL (thread here).

So if my amp or DAC is adding distortions, which has SINAD under -70dB, I probably couldn't hear it. And if that distortion is 2nd harmonic (one octave higher), there is no way I'm going to notice that at all. Besides, the most beautiful thing about bells and harpsichords are the harmonics.

That means 24 bits is lost on me, 16 bits is overkill, and 12 bits is good enough!

What all that above means that I can use "consumer grade" DACs, power amps, and be happy. Sure I have money to spend on things that perform better than -70dB SINAD, but unless the "cheap stuff" is broken some how, it's just psychological safety.

Heck, at 70dB, 12 bits, LP records would sound great!


What I DO notice, though is frequency response. If a speaker or headphone has a +3dB hump somewhere (in fact, anywhere), my non-golden ears WILL notice it.

I also hear 60Hz hum. I go eliminating those with a vengeance.

Oh, and room modes. They are very annoying.

And knowing what I can hear let me focus on spending money on things that I can hear. Like good speakers. Subwoofer to fill in the bottom end and DSP to correct room modes at the listening position.

And I spend many hours just listening to music. Youtube is so great for finding new stuff. And random stuff.

Thanks ASR for letting me gain all this knowledge, direct my $$$ and attention to the important things, and enjoy high quality audio. These days even watching Disney movies with my little ones is a joyful auditory experience.

Good sound is Good.
I subscribe to all of that. And although my aging ears are much worse than yours, having made music myself occasionally (drums) I do note immediately if musicians are out of sync or out of tune. And there is still a lot of fun listening to music!
 

solderdude

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I do not have golden ears.

My hearing is normal for my age. I can hear up to 16kHz. I don't have tinnitus.

To me, there is no music above 18kHz. I noticed that even when I could hear 20kHz (back when 128kbps MP3s were all the rage).

This means all the high res stuff is lost on me. 44.1kHz is good enough!

I can barely, barely hear -75dB signal when 0dB is played at 85dBA SPL (thread here).

So if my amp or DAC is adding distortions, which has SINAD under -70dB, I probably couldn't hear it. And if that distortion is 2nd harmonic (one octave higher), there is no way I'm going to notice that at all. Besides, the most beautiful thing about bells and harpsichords are the harmonics.

That means 24 bits is lost on me, 16 bits is overkill, and 12 bits is good enough!

What all that above means that I can use "consumer grade" DACs, power amps, and be happy. Sure I have money to spend on things that perform better than -70dB SINAD, but unless the "cheap stuff" is broken some how, it's just psychological safety.

Heck, at 70dB, 12 bits, LP records would sound great!


What I DO notice, though is frequency response. If a speaker or headphone has a +3dB hump somewhere (in fact, anywhere), my non-golden ears WILL notice it.

I also hear 60Hz hum. I go eliminating those with a vengeance.

Oh, and room modes. They are very annoying.

And knowing what I can hear let me focus on spending money on things that I can hear. Like good speakers. Subwoofer to fill in the bottom end and DSP to correct room modes at the listening position.

And I spend many hours just listening to music. Youtube is so great for finding new stuff. And random stuff.

Thanks ASR for letting me gain all this knowledge, direct my $$$ and attention to the important things, and enjoy high quality audio. These days even watching Disney movies with my little ones is a joyful auditory experience.

Good sound is Good.

Same here except I am older and can only do upto 14kHz.
Frequency extension I can hear the best on cymbals.
I value bass extension, dynamic sound and high quality treble, some roll-off or upwards tilt I don't mind as long as the quality is good.
Never hear any 60Hz hum but am annoyed by 50Hz and its harmonics :)

Peaks in speakers and headphone are very annoying.

Most annoying to me are poor recordings. A good system will make poor recordings sound poor and there are lots of those. Excellent recordings sound excellent.
 
Last edited:

lxlx

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Agree too.
Except for harmonics of a bell, which would be present in the recording and every DAC should play them.
But the DAC should not add its own harmonics (on each frequency band of that bell + bell_harmonics).
 

laudio

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An honest post. I figure most around here would rather let their computer tell them how good things sound by looking at curves on a screen instead of listening. But measurements are cool too.
 
OP
L

LeftCoastTim

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An honest post. I figure most around here would rather let their computer tell them how good things sound by looking at curves on a screen instead of listening. But measurements are cool too.

Oh, I look at curves on screen. That's how I fix my room modes using REW and my DSP. And aim for the Harman room target. That's how I chose my speakers (CEA2034).

I could never have gotten this much out of my setup without measurements.
 

bigx5murf

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This is why I need HiRes
20191202_205715.jpg
 

KozmoNaut

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My hearing stops aroubd 16-17 kHz as well, and the noise floor in my living room is around 30-40 dB (city apartment).

16/44.1 is plenty good, and I figure most people on here have similar circumstances.

Honestly I don't care much which format my music is in, as long as there are no obviously audible flaws. Heck, even vinyl LPs are A-OK.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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An honest post. I figure most around here would rather let their computer tell them how good things sound by looking at curves on a screen instead of listening. But measurements are cool too.

I'm not sure why the shot at measurements is necessary. The problem in audio is not people with normal hearing following measurements. It's people with normal or worse hearing believing a bunch of imaginary nonsense that has nothing to do with reality. I would think almost everyone who is a real objectivist totally understands the limitations of our own ears. Personally, the understanding of my own hearing limitations is one of the primary reasons I came to recognize just how much BS there is out there regarding audio. Actual objective measurements give me much more useful information than another video by a golden-eared audiophool like Guttenburg.

the truth is, what was said here by the OP applies to a huge majority of us audiophiles. 44.1 is good enough for all of us! Nobody needs higher res...nobody can actually hear a difference. But they'll say they can for sure! In fact, under about 99% of real-world circumstances a 320kbps mp3 is good enough for all of us.
 

Tks

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I'm not sure why the shot at measurements is necessary. The problem in audio is not people with normal hearing following measurements. It's people with normal or worse hearing believing a bunch of imaginary nonsense that has nothing to do with reality. I would think almost everyone who is a real objectivist totally understands the limitations of our own ears. Personally, the understanding of my own hearing limitations is one of the primary reasons I came to recognize just how much BS there is out there regarding audio. Actual objective measurements give me much more useful information than another video by a golden-eared audiophool like Guttenburg.

the truth is, what was said here by the OP applies to a huge majority of us audiophiles. 44.1 is good enough for all of us! Nobody needs higher res...nobody can actually hear a difference. But they'll say they can for sure! In fact, under about 99% of real-world circumstances a 320kbps mp3 is good enough for all of us.

Couldn't agree more.

Though when we say "nobody needs", I hope this is with the understanding of people consuming music, and not producing it. Likewise 320kbps, I feel there is a place for lossless file formats (for the sake of archival purposes, and processing phase of the audio industry). But if you mean simply listeners? Then yeah I agree totally. Which is why even to this day I will never understand something like DSD's existence and persistence in the modern day.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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Couldn't agree more.

Though when we say "nobody needs", I hope this is with the understanding of people consuming music, and not producing it. Likewise 320kbps, I feel there is a place for lossless file formats (for the sake of archival purposes, and processing phase of the audio industry). But if you mean simply listeners? Then yeah I agree totally. Which is why even to this day I will never understand something like DSD's existence and persistence in the modern day.

Oh absolutely! When it comes to production it should be lossless all the way. I mean even for listening, if one has the space go lossless. Just don't pretend you can actually hear an audible difference. Nobody is picking out stray lossy files while they are driving around in their car, lol. The real issue is that we're led (by the golden ears) to believe that this really expensive dac will give us a magical SQ improvement over that other, less expensive dac - even though the cheaper one measures the same or even better. Or that this expensive high res player sounds notably better (or even different) than this other less costly high res player even though the measurements show them to be the same.

When someone visits us here at ASR and accuses us of being "slaves to the numbers" and of not using our ears and "just listening," they always leave out one of the fundamental aspects of audio objectivism - blind testing. Most of us are committed proponents of "using our ears." We just require that we're using only our ears. If someone wants to claim they can hear something, fine. Hear it in a proper blind test and I might believe you.
 

BDWoody

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Nobody is picking out stray lossy files while they are driving around in their car, lol.

What are you talking about...
Their wives in the trunk can even hear the difference...

/s
 

Tks

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When someone visits us here at ASR and accuses us of being "slaves to the numbers" and of not using our ears and "just listening," they always leave out one of the fundamental aspects of audio objectivism - blind testing. Most of us are committed proponents of "using our ears." We just require that we're using only our ears. If someone wants to claim they can hear something, fine. Hear it in a proper blind test and I might believe you.

Really wish more people would simply tell this to others.

I am perfectly fine with using no measurements if there are folks out there that can demonstrate a phenomena using no equipment for measuring. Just demonstrate that it exists at all in the first place, then we'll talk about how there's something we can't measure.

Audioclowns seem to think all we do is measure stuff or listen to sine waves, when the fact of the matter is, all phenomena is first noticed by chance or circumstance. No one sets out to measure volts before realizing electricity exists. These sorts of audiophiles that are like the way I just described, seem to not understand this basic mode of thinking that is apparent in even adolescence. I truly don't think anyone is this stupid that doesn't have some mental handicap and such. I truly believe they're just SO quick at defending themselves, and attacking anything outside their purview instinctively - that they are just scrambling to grasp at any straws left in attempts at topic diversionary tactics.

So even if you make them aware of this lapse in sensibility, they try and change the focus, and resort to premature exiting of the discussion, or self destructing the conversation by hurling ad-homs (basically anything to avoid addressing any points of contention brought up to them).

As for specifically blind testing, and when you're actually able to meet someone not on some lunacy ranting-mode. They will say that blind testing itself has problems.

1) It's not perfect.

Easy retort to this from me would be "I simply don't care, it's better than nothing, and it will satisfy me, so even if it's flawed like every other thing in life to some degree, there is value in humoring me if nothing else, and just doing it"

2) We use all of our senses when we listen to music, no one suddenly halts their other senses. So if they do blind tests, they're somehow not the same person or entity going through an experience.

Easy retort #2, is simply explanation of that being the point we're actually trying to drive home. We're only concerned what you can do with your ears, not how much bass you can feel with your chest, or how good the gear looks while playing it.

3) It imparts a psychological load to perform, thus stunting capability people usually would have when not under pressure.

Perhaps their one and only point that holds theoretical merit. Except if it weren't for the fact that they have no problems in other tests, just blind tests. So it fails spectacularly either way you cut it. It also calls into question the level of confidence of their own claims, potentially revealing the subconscious fears they have knowing how logically their claims and confidence is based upon defiance of rationale. And the fact that sighted tests contribute so heavily in their performance, meaning BY DEFINITION their ears aren't as capable as their mythology crafting has come to form their thoughts on the matter.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My biggest issue is I have understanding how grown adults (anyone around the age of ~25 and over) can function even in society like this. It just goes to show how the social structures of society have so much welfare built into them, where people like this can go around seemingly like someone who's lost function of one of their brain hemispheres - and still eek out a living, and heck even sometimes being quite successful. That's one thing I am simply in awe of, and disbelief in. But then again most people live as a slave-class (even if you have air conditioners) relatively speaking, so as long as you can do your daily 8-hour work day, you'll be thrown a bone enough to live it seems.

I'm just surprised the population of wolves (scam artists) isn't higher to exploit people like this..
 

T.M.Noble

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hat all that above means that I can use "consumer
Oh absolutely! When it comes to production it should be lossless all the way. I mean even for listening, if one has the space go lossless. Just don't pretend you can actually hear an audible difference. Nobody is picking out stray lossy files while they are driving around in their car, lol. The real issue is that we're led (by the golden ears) to believe that this really expensive dac will give us a magical SQ improvement over that other, less expensive dac - even though the cheaper one measures the same or even better. Or that this expensive high res player sounds notably better (or even different) than this other less costly high res player even though the measurements show them to be the same.

When someone visits us here at ASR and accuses us of being "slaves to the numbers" and of not using our ears and "just listening," they always leave out one of the fundamental aspects of audio objectivism - blind testing. Most of us are committed proponents of "using our ears." We just require that we're using only our ears. If someone wants to claim they can hear something, fine. Hear it in a proper blind test and I might believe you.

I completely agree with blind testing. At our monthly events, we have had numerous blind tests with very interesting results. I think the biggest problem is defining a proper methodology. Often times, blind testing is done with unfamiliar music in stressful environments for short periods of time. I think we can do better and I am confident there are large swaths of people that can pass blind tests at much higher rates than chance.

We need an audiophile sommelier program. But free of cost and less pretentious.
 

MattHooper

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I completely agree with blind testing. At our monthly events, we have had numerous blind tests with very interesting results. I think the biggest problem is defining a proper methodology. Often times, blind testing is done with unfamiliar music in stressful environments for short periods of time. I think we can do better and I am confident there are large swaths of people that can pass blind tests at much higher rates than chance.

We need an audiophile sommelier program. But free of cost and less pretentious.

Sounds interesting. Could you give a bit of detail on some of the interesting results? Thanks.
 

MattHooper

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the truth is, what was said here by the OP applies to a huge majority of us audiophiles. 44.1 is good enough for all of us! Nobody needs higher res...nobody can actually hear a difference. But they'll say they can for sure! In fact, under about 99% of real-world circumstances a 320kbps mp3 is good enough for all of us.

Agreed. I don't really go chasing hi-res audio for my music listening. Redbook is plenty fine for me. Also, there are a number of stations I listen to on my hi-fi rig and some of my favourite are 320kbps. They sound great! (Admittedly, they tend to be the electronica-based stations).
 

majingotan

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I completely agree with blind testing. At our monthly events, we have had numerous blind tests with very interesting results. I think the biggest problem is defining a proper methodology. Often times, blind testing is done with unfamiliar music in stressful environments for short periods of time. I think we can do better and I am confident there are large swaths of people that can pass blind tests at much higher rates than chance.

We need an audiophile sommelier program. But free of cost and less pretentious.

I read that story somewhere and the participants actually preferred the Delta Sigma version compared to the Multibit version of the Gungnir DAC on that blind test
 

Snarfie

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An honest post. I figure most around here would rather let their computer tell them how good things sound by looking at curves on a screen instead of listening. But measurements are cool too.
For me looking to my room correction computer graphs did the opposites it showd me how bad my room acoustic is an because of that my (former) addiction for mid & high frequencies.
 
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