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Why Audiophiles Are Shopping for Vintage Turntables

BDWoody

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Strange isn't it. How I miss tuning my SU carbies

I can't think of anything I don't miss less...

I had twin SU's on my old Volvo... What a monstrous pain they were to get right...
 

Frank Dernie

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I have only three record players, Dual, NAD and Thorens 145 with Hanze hifi tuned motor, but only the last one active. I have still all my LPs, of whichsome are rare and not yet digitized. No intention to upgrade decks, cartridges or RIAAs. And one cassette deck too, Yamaha.

I've spent some time measuring rumble, cartridge response etc. with Audacity and REW, interesting!

View attachment 50266
You are getting a -lot- of subsonic garbage there. With a seismic transducer like a cartridge the output below about 2xFn of the system is garbage and is best filtered out (IMHO) though rumble filters are unfashionable at the moment, perhaps people like more bass regardless.
Looks like the cartridge arm mass resonance is around 12Hz so everything below 24Hz is to a greater of lesser extent produced by the dynamics of your record player rather than actually being on the record (though something might be, just not this...)
 

BDWoody

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It smells like Gwyneth Paltrow's vagina, not some run of the mill vagina.
.

I didn't think it smelled like her vagina at all...
It was more like her neighbor.
 

Juhazi

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You are getting a -lot- of subsonic garbage there. With a seismic transducer like a cartridge the output below about 2xFn of the system is garbage and is best filtered out (IMHO) though rumble filters are unfashionable at the moment, perhaps people like more bass regardless.
Looks like the cartridge arm mass resonance is around 12Hz so everything below 24Hz is to a greater of lesser extent produced by the dynamics of your record player rather than actually being on the record (though something might be, just not this...)

You name it! Fortunately I am fanboy of sealed box woofers! That capture was done with Terrratec iVinyl ADC-riaa that doesn't have a rumble filter like the good analog preamp/RIAAs. I use Audacity to clean the clicks and set highpass filtering in digitized files. However too high and steep filtering kills the "vinyl sound"!

Here with 12dB/oct highpass at 25Hz
cale 5 vinyl rip boilin pot 12dB2 5Hz.jpg


When I read vinyl articles this very fundamental cartridge resonance is often totally skipped. Tonearm and cartridge must match! I have 4 cartridges that I've measured with my Thorens TD 145 MkII. Resonance frequency and amplitude varies a lot!
 
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Rick Sykora

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While am fully in the digital music camp, I suspect there are some aspects that maybe we may have lost along the way...
  1. The album as a collection of related songs. When the medium made it less convenient to skip tracks, a listener may have found a greater relationship with a set if songs rather than a single “hit”. I know people who just listen to the hit song and never experience the rest of an album’s music.
  2. Dreaded clicks and pops aside, maybe the sound of compressed analog is more desirable than compressed digital? This may apply more to a particular age group than otherwise. As someone mentioned, this seems more of a fad phenomena, but is not without precedence for certain market segments.
  3. Physical acquisition and ownership of an album requires a greater level of commitment than simply streaming it from the internet. This may say something about our nature than analog vs. digital, but think most people value something more when they had to work harder for it. Now set the bar by adding that I need a turntable, cartridge and some amount of electronics and you are way more committed ;).
So, yes I can see some attraction to older technology like a turntable. I rarely listen to my vinyl anymore but I still replaced my nice Dual belt-drive turntable with an Audio-Technica direct drive one just in case! Thanks to the vinyl revival, I sold my Dual for a lot more too...
 

Robin L

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While am fully in the digital music camp, I suspect there are some aspects that maybe we may have lost along the way...
1.The album as a collection of related songs. When the medium made it less convenient to skip tracks, a listener may have found a greater relationship with a set if songs rather than a single “hit”. I know people who just listen to the hit song and never experience the rest of an album’s music.

How sad, actually having the ease to dodge dodgy tracks from a typical LP. I'm crying. If one wants to hear the Eroica, do you really think one's gonna skip the scherzo? Do you really think most pop albums gain all that much by being played in sequence? Honestly, having greater control over playback options is a flaw? I don't think so.

2. Dreaded clicks and pops aside, maybe the sound of compressed analog is more desirable than compressed digital? This may apply more to a particular age group than otherwise. As someone mentioned, this seems more of a fad phenomena, but is not without precedence for certain market segments.

Dreaded clicks and pops are never aside. Not to mention off-center records. Beyond that, the groove always runs out of energy as the stylus approaches the deadwax. Nothing can be done about that. Once one hears that flaw, it cannot be unheard. Age group or not, if one hears unamplified music on a regular basis the lack of "grip' of LP playback becomes obvious. Particularly on the last track of an album side.

3. Physical acquisition and ownership of an album requires a greater level of commitment than simply streaming it from the internet. This may say something about our nature than analog vs. digital, but think most people value something more when they had to work harder for it. Now set the bar by adding that I need a turntable, cartridge and some amount of electronics and you are way more committed ;).

"Committed ", now there's a word for ya. Spend enough time attempting to get stylus overhang "perfect" [can't be done on a pivoted arm] and you'll wanna be committed. The relationship to all that stuff is more like being enslaved to one's possessions.

So, yes I can see some attraction to older technology like a turntable. I rarely listen to my vinyl anymore but I still replaced my nice Dual belt-drive turntable with an Audio-Technica direct drive one just in case! Thanks to the vinyl revival, I sold my Dual for a lot more too...

Got rid of three functional, five non-functional turntables and two thousand LPs last year. Have no intention of ever returning to Lps. The covers are nice. That's about all there really is to it.
 

captain paranoia

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I take great care when choosing my cereal...

One day, I may extract my middle digit and resurrect my Ariston RD-40. Or maybe not...
 

Twitch54

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Hey, don't undersell the value.

It smells like Gwyneth Paltrow's vagina, not some run of the mill vagina.

Just think how much access to her vagina smell would previously cost? Millions?

And apparently her vagina smells like bergamot, something I've never encountered in my life with less than A list celebrity vaginas.

I think it's a steal.

Wow !!! never quite thought of vintage analog and a vagina in the same breath ..........
 

anmpr1

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You are getting a -lot- of subsonic garbage there. With a seismic transducer like a cartridge the output below about 2xFn of the system is garbage and is best filtered out (IMHO) though rumble filters are unfashionable at the moment, perhaps people like more bass regardless.
During analog-only days, all (or most all) preamps/integrated/receivers had subsonic filters. Today, in spite of the 'analog revival' it seems that many 'phono oriented' devices don't feature this. One can observe for woofer pumping at the lead in groove. If you see that, you definitely need a filter. You'll save your amp from pushing this LF garbage, and it can't hurt your speakers to filter it, too.
 

Frank Dernie

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During analog-only days, all (or most all) preamps/integrated/receivers had subsonic filters. Today, in spite of the 'analog revival' it seems that many 'phono oriented' devices don't feature this. One can observe for woofer pumping at the lead in groove. If you see that, you definitely need a filter. You'll save your amp from pushing this LF garbage, and it can't hurt your speakers to filter it, too.
That is true, but it is better to just filter out the non-correct signal IMO on principle, because it is crap.
Low pass filters are not fashion of the day amongst record player enthusiasts though, yet another way they demonstrate their love of inaccuracy :)
 

Rick Sykora

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How sad, actually having the ease to dodge dodgy tracks from a typical LP. I'm crying. If one wants to hear the Eroica, do you really think one's gonna skip the scherzo? Do you really think most pop albums gain all that much by being played in sequence? Honestly, having greater control over playback options is a flaw? I don't think so.

Random access IS amongst the major reasons I like digital better. My point was that you are less captive than when you were more inclined to listen to (at least) half an album. :)

Dreaded clicks and pops are never aside. Not to mention off-center records. Beyond that, the groove always runs out of energy as the stylus approaches the deadwax. Nothing can be done about that. Once one hears that flaw, it cannot be unheard. Age group or not, if one hears unamplified music on a regular basis the lack of "grip' of LP playback becomes obvious. Particularly on the last track of an album side.

You clearly had some worse experiences than I, but to clarify, I was suggesting that maybe vinyl sound could be better than highly compressed digital for some market segment, Notably, those that were not knowledgeable about all the sordid mechanical imperfections of vinyl playback. Frankly, am amazed it sounded as good as it did!

"Committed ", now there's a word for ya. Spend enough time attempting to get stylus overhang "perfect" [can't be done on a pivoted arm] and you'll wanna be committed. The relationship to all that stuff is more like being enslaved to one's possessions.

Guilty as charged here and yes, I used the word "committed" with the just the intent you noted. I am also self-aware enough to know that I am more enslaved than I care to admit (whether to my vinyl or my FLACs)! ;)

Got rid of three functional, five non-functional turntables and two thousand LPs last year. Have no intention of ever returning to Lps. The covers are nice. That's about all there really is to it.
 

GeorgeWalk

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While am fully in the digital music camp, I suspect there are some aspects that maybe we may have lost along the way...
  1. The album as a collection of related songs. When the medium made it less convenient to skip tracks, a listener may have found a greater relationship with a set if songs rather than a single “hit”. I know people who just listen to the hit song and never experience the rest of an album’s music.
  2. Dreaded clicks and pops aside, maybe the sound of compressed analog is more desirable than compressed digital? This may apply more to a particular age group than otherwise. As someone mentioned, this seems more of a fad phenomena, but is not without precedence for certain market segments.
  3. Physical acquisition and ownership of an album requires a greater level of commitment than simply streaming it from the internet. This may say something about our nature than analog vs. digital, but think most people value something more when they had to work harder for it. Now set the bar by adding that I need a turntable, cartridge and some amount of electronics and you are way more committed ;).
So, yes I can see some attraction to older technology like a turntable. I rarely listen to my vinyl anymore but I still replaced my nice Dual belt-drive turntable with an Audio-Technica direct drive one just in case! Thanks to the vinyl revival, I sold my Dual for a lot more too...

Vinyl to me is like printed books vs. Knidle. The books (and LPs) look great displayed on shelves, but digital is much easier. I can carry dozens of Kindle books with me all the time.
 

anmpr1

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Vinyl to me is like printed books vs. Knidle. The books (and LPs) look great displayed on shelves, but digital is much easier. I can carry dozens of Kindle books with me all the time.
I think that is not a too bad of an analogy. But... with books there are advantages. First, they are lighter (paperback) and hence easier to maneuver. Second, it is easier to find them on a shelf (perhaps) than running through a menu. Third, books show off one's ready intelligence in a way that a Kindle never will (here I am being facetious). Fouth, you never have to plug in your book.

The downside of books? Hard to make annotations. Example: You're going through Madox Ford's four volume novel set in the First World War and find a couple of hidden references to Ezra Pound. Easy to make text annotations on a Kindle, but have to bend the page on the book and write in the margins. Then, later, you can't read your writing because your pencil has faded.

Unfortunately, some books are not well formatted for Kindle.
 

Frank Dernie

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The 1974 version of the RIAA weighting includes a (fairly slow roll off) high pass filter which is just as well given otherwise the RIAA boosts the garbage a lot.
Not many people use it today as far as I can see.
 

sejarzo

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I bought a Kenwood KD-500 not long after it came out and went through Grace, SME, and FR tonearms, Sonus, Denon, Grado, and other cartridges, and LPs sounded different with all of those combinations, along with the hiss, rumble, ticks, etc. Perhaps all of them were equally "accurate" by the standards of the day but erred in different directions.

Our son played in a very well respected wind band program about 15 years ago, and I asked his national award-winning director what he thought about analog vs. digital. He said that there was no question that digital was far superior when it came to classical program material because of the dynamic range and lack of noise/ticks in quieter passages. I don't recall his exact words but he did say that some folks seemed to be nostalgic for the sound of an old FM tube radio because that's how they grew up thinking music sounded...when it never really did.
 

leftside

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No doubt the convenience of digital. Great for when on the go, for finding new music (i.e. with Roon Radio + Tidal), but for the darkened room with eyes closed, a good TT setup on a well pressed/well looked after piece of vinyl is tough to beat. Not sure the vintage TT's are better than the newer ones though.
 

Crazy_Nate

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I understand why some people love Vinyl. There's this nostalgic ritual that digital can't match. I just ignore it outright. I'm young and immune to Vinyl nostalgia :)

I think carburetors are a good analog. Despite having two carb'd 2-strokes in the garage (dirt bikes), I'd prefer the convenience of fuel injection, any day of the week. While the dirt bikes are a blast, tinkering with the carb to make them run "just" right is not why own 'em. :cool:
 

anmpr1

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I bought a Kenwood KD-500 not long after it came out and went through Grace, SME, and FR tonearms, Sonus, Denon, Grado, and other cartridges, and LPs sounded different with all of those combinations.
I recall those well. KD-500 was a relatively inexpensive deck made of a concrete resin material. Highly recommended for DD.

Grace (Shinagawa Musen) began with a knock off of the '50s Grey oil damped arm, but got into indigenous designs featuring four point gimbals/unipivots. Your's probably came with a G-707 arm (I still have one in a drawer). The 707/747 worked well with Sonus (née ADC) because of the latter's high compliance. Blue was rated high among MM cartridges. I owned a 'Red' but never much cared for it. Who knows?

Isamu Ikeda (FR, Ikeda Sound Labs, and, I think, earlier Satin MCs?) took an opposite approach from Peter Pritchard (GE, ADC, Sonus) making low compliance cartridges with massive tonearms, in order to thwart unwanted resonances.

SME was always a standard.

I never heard a bad Denon MC. The 'D' model always appealed to me.

For reasons I don't know, I never owned a Grado. I ought to correct that.

Every analog rig sounded different... because they were different. As crazy as it may sound, I have a Garrard Z-100 with a Shure M97xE that I prefer over my other turntables. I can't understand why. The Garrard is clunky, Mickey-Mouse/Rube Goldberg, and goes against anything you'd think was what you want in a turntable. The Shure is average (but has the damped brush which 'tames' the pantograph arm). Yet I like the overall sound.

Of course listening to digits 'lifts the veil' and makes everything clear. We recall, however, how Euterpe is female. Some woman, even goddesses, look best veiled. :cool:
 

Wes

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Good Reasons:
1. Some albums on vinyl never made it to CD or downloads, or is very hard to get.

2. Some vinyl has better mastering than available CDs.

Bad Reasons:
I. Some people like certain distortions

II. Some people are not quite sane.

OK Reasons:
A. Some people get bored and like to mess with things

B. Some people like the aesthetics of mechanical contraptions.
 
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