"Measurement data are one thing, and audio quality is another. "

[Jimbob54]

I'm only really concerned with what the equipment does... how else should it be evaluated? The equipment doesn't make me feel any kind of way that would be related to music...it's an engineered device.

If I can see via the measurements that a piece of equipment is measurably transparent, then I am free to simply enjoy the music I choose to play. I appreciate when my (audio) equipment can disappear. Fortunately, we can do this fairly predictably.

I know you didn't mean you cant enjoy the music without knowing the measurements of the equipment and I understand your point. I do just sometimes wish I could enjoy my kit for a number of years without wondering if replacing X, Y or Z would make that enjoyment BETTER though. We constantly see the SoA boundaries moving so the nagging doubt always exists (for me) .

 

[Wes]

SQ comes first

after that you can get pleasurable experiences from aesthetics or ergonomics

 

[BDWoody]

I know you didn't mean you cant enjoy the music without knowing the measurements of the equipment and I understand your point. I do just sometimes wish I could enjoy my kit for a number of years without wondering if replacing X, Y or Z would make that enjoyment BETTER though. We constantly see the SoA boundaries moving so the nagging doubt always exists (for me) .

What helped me was a lot of reading about hearing thresholds, and more about the psychoacoustics side, rather than the electronics side. Once I got a more realistic view of what we can hear, may hear, will never hear...it took all the fear of what I might be missing out on out of it.

Same thing with learning about Nyquist-Shannon... It's not intuitive, but once I got it, I stopped stressing about about sample rates...

This site is a hot knife through the bullshit butter...

Have you seen @RayDunzl 's shout-o-meter?

I think that may have been where a few lights came on for me...

 

[murraycamp]

We constantly see the SoA boundaries moving so the nagging doubt always exists (for me) .

Me too, notwithstanding my rational acknowledgement that many (reasonably priced) electronic components are now audibly transparent, certainly to my ears anyway.

My mind is a dangerous place; I try not to go in there alone.

 

[murraycamp]

This site is a hot knife through the bullshit butter...

Outstanding. This should be on the header.

 

[Jimbob54]

What helped me was a lot of reading about hearing thresholds, and more about the psychoacoustics side, rather than the electronics side. Once I got a more realistic view of what we can hear, may hear, will never hear...it took all the fear of what I might be missing out on out of it.

Same thing with learning about Nyquist-Shannon... It's not intuitive, but once I got it, I stopped stressing about about sample rates...

This site is a hot knife through the bullshit butter...

Have you seen @RayDunzl 's shout-o-meter?

I think that may have been where a few lights came on for me...

Oh, I'm learning loads from lurking here. Encountered reference to the above. Im a broad brush kinda guy and dont get the more technical side of things too well. But lets just say from now on I will refer to Hifi press/ blogs for discussion of features etc but no longer fall for the colourful descriptions of how things sound as a guide to purchasing.

 

[Jimbob54]

Me too, notwithstanding my rational acknowledgement that many (reasonably priced) electronic components are now audibly transparent, certainly to my ears anyway.

My mind is a dangerous place; I try not to go in there alone.

Amenz!

 

[Blumlein 88]

I know you didn't mean you cant enjoy the music without knowing the measurements of the equipment and I understand your point. I do just sometimes wish I could enjoy my kit for a number of years without wondering if replacing X, Y or Z would make that enjoyment BETTER though. We constantly see the SoA boundaries moving so the nagging doubt always exists (for me) .

You might try Pkane's Distort software. Let's you take music, distort it according to any profile you choose, and see what it sounds like. Once you find with most music hearing anything less than 1% distortion is unlikely you can relax a bit. Worse is some music seems just fine with 3% distortion.

 

[Jimbob54]

You might try Pkane's Distort software. Let's you take music, distort it according to any profile you choose, and see what it sounds like. Once you find with most music hearing anything less than 1% distortion is unlikely you can relax a bit. Worse is some music seems just fine with 3% distortion.

Im a fan of a distorted guitar/ tortured amp sound. Some extra fuzz through my kit can be even more pleasing. I know Grado 'phones arent accurate, but the added crunch they bring to some guitar sounds is very pleasing . Same with some amps that add a bit of "fizz".

TBH I havent got the inclination to mess with any software/ DSP , I'll just back off/ hammer down the volume as required to get any given combo sounding as "right" as it can for any track or mood .

But its also nice to know I have kit that can be neutral/ transparent. Variety is the spice and all that jazz.

 

[Russ_L]

Hi - new member, first post on the forum. Some background, I'm a retired electrical engineer / engineering manager. So, I'm a measurements guy for sure! Do good measurements guarantee good sound? Maybe, maybe not. Do bad measurements guarantee bad sound? Again, maybe, maybe not.

But to me, the issue is if a manufacturer can provide perfect or near perfect measurements for e.g. USD $499 (Topping D70) then pretty much everyone above that price point, and well above that price point should be able to do the same. Audibility is a non-issue in my opinion.

Sooner or later bad measurements are bound to bite you in the ass, er ears.

Russ

 

[mansr]

But to me, the issue is if a manufacturer can provide perfect or near perfect measurements for e.g. USD $499 (Topping D70) then pretty much everyone above that price point, and well above that price point should be able to do the same. Audibility is a non-issue in my opinion.

This is where the believers proclaim that you're measuring the wrong thing. Granting, for sake of argument, this possibility, there is still no excuse for performing poorly in the aspects we do measure. They never seem willing to discuss this.

 

[stereo coffee]

This is where the believers proclaim that you're measuring the wrong thing. Granting, for sake of argument, this possibility, there is still no excuse for performing poorly in the aspects we do measure. They never seem willing to discuss this.

As long as the parameters of measurement end up reflecting every day use, rather than outright abusive testing which serves no purpose. Some nice examples would be a set piece of music say Vangelis 1492 track 12, rather than alien waveforms we are likely never to hear.

 

[0bs3rv3r]

Agreed with above... I think the only question is whether or not "audio quality" describes something other than "fidelity level"... i.e. do you believe there is something other than transparency to the source material to be considered?

They way I relate to this is to recall my grandfather's evaluation of a record player. It either had a "good tone" or it didn't. To put this comment into perspective, he grew up with wind-up gramophones and acoustic horn amplification. Reproduced sound, in his day was ALL coloured. To some extent, the "tone" included some bass extension, and mid-range clarity, but overall, it was the pleasantness of the sound - to HIM.

I don't believe you could easily measure what was perceived as a good tone, in any way that would be applicable to everyone.

Of course, I am lucky in a way, as I DO consider transparency to be the goal, so measurements help my immensely in evaluation - but I still want to listen to it as well

 

[Wombat]

"Turn it down" also yelled in Frank Zappa's Joe Garage

Similarly, "Fuck the neighbours" yelled in the background in The Small Faces' Lazy Sunday Afternoon.

 

[Wombat]

Regarding all things subjective:

View attachment 47857

Meanwhile, at Stereophile, yet another purely subjective review of a "a single-ended amplifier that uses one F2a power tetrode per side, offering about 10Wpc". $13,000. If you like this sort of thing, you'll like this sort of thing.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-206-shindo-cortese-amplifier

What, not even triode power? Blasphemy.

 

[Wombat]

Im a fan of a distorted guitar/ tortured amp sound. Some extra fuzz through my kit can be even more pleasing. I know Grado 'phones arent accurate, but the added crunch they bring to some guitar sounds is very pleasing . Same with some amps that add a bit of "fizz".

TBH I havent got the inclination to mess with any software/ DSP , I'll just back off/ hammer down the volume as required to get any given combo sounding as "right" as it can for any track or mood .

But its also nice to know I have kit that can be neutral/ transparent. Variety is the spice and all that jazz.

You have just described what guitar amps are for.

 

[Robin L]

What, not even triode power? Blasphemy.

They make up for it with a similar lack of power.

I should take that back, there's probably a high-current monster triode amp out there. But this is certainly acting like a low powered SET.

 

[Blumlein 88]

They make up for it with a similar lack of power.

I should take that back, there's probably a high-current monster triode amp out there. But this is certainly acting like a low powered SET.

I've heard no good SET has power in the double digit range. So tetrode<triode. Triode is king.

 

[North_Sky]

Can we predict measurements? Can we predict aural sensorial emotional pleasure?
Can we tell what Mom and Dad think it's best for us?

 

[solderdude]

Measurements say something about electrical performance fof electronic equipment.
When one understands what is measured and has a grasp on audibility levels, only then one can make an educated guess based on the results.
It won't tell anything about how someone finds it subjectively. There is no correlation.
It also won't tell whether there is a chance of being plagued by common mode issues or not or how sensitive the equipment is for pickup of unwanted signals.
Both measurements and listening have their worth.
There can be a certain relation (above audible thresholds) between measured and percieved performance.
There usually is no relation between measured performance and perceived performance when only subjective evaluations are done.
There can be concensus, for some people, between measured and perceived performance when one believes in measurements.
There will not be concensus for other people between measured and perceived performance when one does not believe in measurements.

Measurements of headphones can say something about certain aspects that are measured when one knows and understands the test conditions and used equipment.
It says nothing about seal one may get, personal preferences one has, comfort, longevity, cable microphonics etc.
It also says nothing about how well one's brain accepts the 'presentation' of music and how it adapts (over time)
It also says nothing about how someone perceives the headphone in question.
Both measurements and listening have their worth.
You should audition headphones before buying something anyway.
Both measurements and listening have their worth.

Measurements of speakers can say something about certain aspects that are measured when one knows and understands the test conditions and used equipment.
I think very few people on this planet truly understand the measurements and even less folks will be able to accurately predict how they (let alone others) can say how that specific speaker will sound in their own living or listening room.
Some might get an idea if it might be worth auditioning/buying one.
It says nothing about your listening room effects, positioning, connected amplifier, personal taste and more variables.
To some it is interesting to others it is not.
You should audition speakers at home before buying something anyway.
Both measurements and listening have their worth.

Deciding to buy something based on measurements alone is just as silly as relying on subjective findings of someone else.
One can buy stuff based on reviews (when one trusts the reviewer)
One can buy something based on measurements (when one understands)
One can buy on based on both.
One can buy based on auditioning.

It's a choice in life everyone is free to make. Choose your poison.
Some folks like/prefer measurements others don't give a crap or it says nothing to them based on whatever line of thinking they have.
Fact is electronics and acoustics is science based. Perception is individual and brain based.