That would be great, unfortunately you cannot buy separate components that do the same as a receiver (hdmi selector, hdmi out, atmos, HDR, 4k, dac, all kind of inputs, etc) and measure well. You can buy a preprocessor and external amps but when it comes to preprocessors they measure bad as well and are much more expensive so probably you're better off using the receiver preouts.
Let's break this down. You're saying there are no pre-processors that measure well? I think this has more to do with the fact that Amir has not measured many pre/pros... Are we really making leaps this far in the
absence of data...?
Further, if pre-pros really do measure poorly, you're saying we should try to make receivers measure better with these reviews? Your thoughts are not consistent and I don't know how a manufacturer will ever put more effort into lower tier products than is put into products of a higher tier.
Yeah I dunno what "buy discrete components" means when there's no such thing if you want to decode Atmos and other newer HT formats. If you don't want to decode that stuff, well then you don't really need an AVR at all.
Other manufacturers have fixed things or changed things in future products due to the reviews on this site
Buy discrete components means don't expect something that is inherently an integrated product with multiple components, like an AVR, to measure well,
period. This is especially important when comparisons are being made between say, an AVR and a dedicated headphone DAC: it's an apple to orange comparison. Further, there are plenty of pre/pros on the market that keep up with the latest standards. Just because Amir has not measured them does not make them bad.
I don't expect Denon to fix this issue with this specific AVR, they probably can't, but it would be nice if it didn't show up in future products, that's all.
It is clear that the DAC performance in this receiver is the same across all manufacturers that used the same DAC. So, what does Denon have to do with it...? Are we going to write a letter to all of the manufacturers of this DAC since it appears to be the way all of them have implemented it? Your interpretation is not consistent with the true reality of the situation and makes no effort to understand why the manufacturer made the choices they did in the first place, which was my initial point here. You're not an expert but you're making statements like you are one...
What about "this issue with this specific AVR" is detrimental to your needs and why is it Denon's job to fix this before their next string of products? Is it so that they can sell 50/500/5000 more receivers to people like us? I don't see the value prop there, I'm not sure Denon or another manufacturer would either.
Other manufacturers have fixed things or changed things in future products due to the reviews on this site, it's not that crazy of an expectation.
It'd be great if you provided proof of this beyond anecdotes, but I will guess that the number of products "fixed" directly because of an ASR review is insignificant compared to the number of products reviewed. It's certainly insignificant in the universe of all home audio products.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying regarding measurements that are deemed "ZOMG horrible" when they are actually audibly not detectable 99.99% of the time i.e. in the real world, such as with the Denon X3500. However, on what grounds can you say NAD sounds "objectively better" than your Denon, when objective measurements show that this is most likely false? Since you are excluding the difference Dirac makes. If it has higher distortion, higher noise, and other measurements that are audibly worse, how can it sound objectively better?
For one, the NAD takes less volume to achieve the same volume levels. This is connected to the exact same speakers (actually, the NAD has two additional heights) and the exact same sources. Generally, volume levels for the Denon were between -20 to -30dB for comfortable listening. On the NAD it's more like -30 to -40dB. Differences were much clearer near reference volumes: the Denon would get very harsh if not unpleasant due to distortion and noise at -10dB whereas the NAD didn't have that bite to it at the same level. This effect is even more pronounced after adding an A5175 to the mix for the front channels.
Amir is going to measure the 2200w at some point, I think it will help myself make a better understanding of his reviews and how they can be used to inform our decisions since I bought his worst rated receiver to replace it and I love it.
I would need some pretty solid proof that Dirac sounds substantially better than Audysey XT32 and subeq HT(in order to accept the poor measured performance and substantial bug/glitch/problems with NAD). I have exceptionally high quality dual subs and only eq below Schroeder with relatively well designed speakers. I have a hard time believing that using a different room eq program to eq only the lower frequencies would make some kind of drastic night and day difference in sound quality. I'm not saying it can't be true, I just haven't seen convincing evidence outside of subjective impressions, which tend to go both ways.
Have you tried listening to a Dirac system? It's less of a black box than Audyssey and I would argue that you are letting the perceptions of others color something that should ultimately be a choice made by you and your own ears, preferably blindly. I used to get caught up in "oh this is buggy/this glitches/whatever excuse I can come up with" and after deciding that the best data we can collect is between our own ears I've had a much better time enjoying and quantifying the differences.
I do think that if the Denon had a cleaner pre-out signal up to 2 volts, it would be a much more attractive AVR for anyone using a good separate amp(if more than 1.5 volts are needed). I'm not 100% sure how many of the well regarded amps require more than 1.5volts to reach full power such as Nord's NC500, Monoprice Monolith, etc, but it does seem counterproductive to feed a 75 dB signal to a high quality amp with a 95 dB or higher rating.
I've been considering a separate amp for at least my LCR, and I'm very glad to know that the Denon is not as clean above 1.5 volts. It will possibly affect which amp I get, or perhaps even influence an AVR switch/upgrade.
I agree that it would be
nice if Denon's receivers measured cleanly at 2V, but again I ask: What is their incentive to do so? Where is the value prop? Spit-balling to make a point here: a manufacturer may have to spend 150% of R&D in order to make a 1% improvement from their current baseline. Would you do that because an internet forum told you your products measure poorly...?
Hell, my NAD T758 V3 barely outputs respectable numbers at 1V and outputs shit at 2V, but the amplifier I have paired it with takes 1.1V for rated power and so far the match has been very harmonious.
At the end of the day, we're just internet nerds. We have to meet manufacturers halfway and understand their side before we try and inform them how their products are bad. I would say fewer than 20 members here (including Amir) have the pedigree and authority to intelligently challenge manufacturers after making measurements. Those are the people who should be making comments on how manufacturers should change their products, not the laymen who became an expert after discovering ASR.
