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Desk speakers (active or passive) up to ~1500€

napilopez

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Is it off-topic? The assumption by some replying in these threads that ask for speaker recommendations is the more neutral, the better. I personally think that's a big assumption.

So what is the variation that people like? You say it's not much. Having read hundreds of discussions over the years on audio forums regarding headphone recommendations, where people have had a chance to experiment with many different sound signatures, there seems to be a lot of variance in what people prefer in terms of general frequency response.

I've been on audio forums for over 10 years, so I feel you.

So yeah, I think maybe we've been conflating two issues. One is whether different people prefer different sound signatures. The answer is yes - but we're talking in the order of a few db, note Olive says "slightly" more bass and treble. The reason I bring up the difference between headphones and speakers is that headphones have frequency responses that vary much more wildly than speakers on the whole.

A few DB up or down on speakers is a big, quite audible deal. But on headphones, frequency response between models vary way more, and you don't have directivity concerns. Hence mental burn in and peole getting used to different sound signatures.

If you want a summary of current research into headphones (admittedly, all harman, but they do more research than anyone), here's a 132 page slideshow "summary" that outlines some of the most important studies available. You can then look up the individual papers if you want to go more in depth (I've only done so for a couple).

The study on page 46 validates what you say. You'll see that while yes, some people prefer a bit more treble or bass when given the choice to EQ individual headphones. However note that these differences in preference are in the order of db.

When choosing between different headphones, the results remain remarkably consistent regardless of age, country, gender, training, experience, or music. See the studies from page 83 to 116.
 

slingshot

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I had the LS 50 speakers on demo but I sent them back. The treble is a killer. I used two different amps with it. My friend has the model with the built in amps and DSP which sounds very good. He thinks the DSP makes a huge difference.

I just purchased the Quad S2 monitors and set them up on my desk two hours ago. (I have a larger desk.) They sound very good so far. They have a ribbon tweeter. Stereophile Class B rating, $1,250. https://www.stereophile.com/content/quad-s-2-loudspeaker
 

LTig

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I have indeed, but have not carried out this type of test with any Neumann speaker.

But “intelligibility” is not the same thing as being able to be mistaken for the real thing when the two are side by side. I can do many things to increase the apparent intelligibility of human speech (NB naturally spoken word such as a news reader, not singing), but such processes inevitably make the sound less natural.
Agreed - but the Neumanns and their predecessors Klein & Hummel provide great intelligibility while sounding neutral, that is without a raise in the upper mids (see the infamous Yamaha NS10 or typical singer microphones like Shure SM58). I own the K&H O300D and no other speaker I've tried in my home (Genelec 8020, Mackie HR824, JBL LSR2325P) was as neutral as those.

Same experience when I visit the local pro shop and compare KH120 against any other speaker. That does not mean those other speakers are bad at all, there are quite I few I could live with if I had to part with my O300D. They are just not as neutral and do not have such a perfect pin point location of instruments in the soundstage. A Genelec One might be as good or better but I have not tried one at home.
 

LTig

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I just purchased the Quad S2 monitors and set them up on my desk two hours ago. (I have a larger desk.) They sound very good so far. They have a ribbon tweeter. Stereophile Class B rating, $1,250. https://www.stereophile.com/content/quad-s-2-loudspeaker
What about the 'hifi' bump at 100 Hz? Do you use EQ to get rid of it?
118Quad2fig4.jpg
 

bunnyfuzz

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Genelec GLM Software is not currently compatible with OS Catalina. It’s still 32bit and OS Catalina is exclusively 64bit.
 
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Buddelpudding

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So, I went to the local music store to listen to some monitors, including the Kh 120 and Kh 80. The 120s sound pretty good, very balanced indeed. Imaging is precise, details are there, although some others seemed to be more revealing, but maybe that's because of treble emphasis or I don't know. The Neumanns otoh seem to work with every kind of music. Even the deep bass on some house tracks was actually quite decent! Can confirm that (Norah Jones's) voice sounds quite realistic and sort of detached from the speakers. The kh80s sound pretty similar, just a tad smaller and more 'compressed'. I prefer the bigger model (they're still tiny).

Now it would be quite interesting to compare them to for example the Kef Ls50 to see if these can hold up.
Where the Kh 120s are quite universal, they don't excite me like other speakers sometimes do, but maybe that's a good thing? I still can't quite shake off my slight anti-studio-monitor-bias, it seems...
 

LTig

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Where the Kh 120s are quite universal, they don't excite me like other speakers sometimes do, but maybe that's a good thing?
I'd say yes. It matches my experience. When I auditioned speakers in the local pro shop Adams (any) for example were more revealing but also much too bright. Mark Knopflers voice sounded as if he had a cold.

IME Neumanns do not sound spectacular when compared directly with many other brands (except JBL LSR 2325) but win in the long run because they are just neutral. The most spectacular ones are often those you want to replace first because they do so for a limited style of music or recordings only.

EDIT: I owned Magnepan 1.6 for 13 years (also a type of speaker with neutral mids, but other flaws) and replaced them by K&H O300D which are now 15+ years old. Yet I still like them, and when they finally die chances are very high that I just replace them by a similar Neumann model. KH310 would be the current successor.

PS: Currently thinking about replacing the wifes JBL 2325Ps by KH120 or KH80 if she decides the Genelec 8020s are not her taste. The JBLs hum to much in her room.
 
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HammerSandwich

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@Buddelpudding, I won't discourage you from buying Neumanns or Genelecs. That said, all of the advice so quickly focuses on the "I am looking for" part of your post. Perhaps you could save a paycheck & have quality sound, simply by spending more time on the sofa.
 
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Buddelpudding

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Thx @HammerSandwich, that's actually great advice, and honestly it doesn't even sound that bad at the desk listening through my floorstanders!
Ultimately I am pretty sure I am going to want two separate systems though, if I ever inhabit more than one room for example. Therefore I don't mind the extra investment. Will spend more time on the sofa anyway...

BTW, I found a good deal for a used pair of KH 120s from 2016. In the ad's title it says KH120, not KH120 A. Are these different colours or is there any difference at all? I did like the colour of the black one at the shop yesterday.
 

JIW

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[...]
BTW, I found a good deal for a used pair of KH 120s from 2016. In the ad's title it says KH120, not KH120 A. Are these different colours or is there any difference at all? I did like the colour of the black one at the shop yesterday.

The A stands for 'Analog'. There is also a D version with additional digital input and delay. In terms of the analog input and controls, amps and drivers they are identical. Colours are denoted 'G' for anthracite grey and 'W' for white.

Also, black? Last I checked they only came in white and anthracite grey.
 
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Buddelpudding

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OK, so maybe they added the 'A' when the digital version was introduced?
Yes, I meant the anthracite. Just wondering if maybe there have been several shades of grey ;)
 

Willem

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I think having digital inputs on such monitors is the logical route. Why have an internal ADC if sources are already digital and force users to get a DAC?
 
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Buddelpudding

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It is my understanding that the Neumann monitors don't have internal AD conversion, but an analog crossover. When monitors have a DSP crossover, it is of course logical to provide digital inputs as well, but I think this is usually the case.
 

JIW

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I think having digital inputs on such monitors is the logical route. Why have an internal ADC if sources are already digital and force users to get a DAC?

The KH120A is an entirely analog design.
 

JIW

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It is my understanding that the Neumann monitors don't have internal AD conversion, but an analog crossover. When monitors have a DSP crossover, it is of course logical to provide digital inputs as well, but I think this is usually the case.

The KH80 don't. Neither do the Genelec 8320, Dynaudio Lyd/BM-series or many of the cheaper monitors such as the JBL 3-series or the Kali LPs. Digital input boards require space and add additional costs. The benefit to fidelity is in most cases negligible compared to the noise and distortion of speakers and amps.
 

Willem

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Ok, I simply assumed that these active monitors also used the benefits of digital crossovers and processing.
 

helloworld

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The KH80 don't. Neither do the Genelec 8320, Dynaudio Lyd/BM-series or many of the cheaper monitors such as the JBL 3-series or the Kali LPs. Digital input boards require space and add additional costs. The benefit to fidelity is in most cases negligible compared to the noise and distortion of speakers and amps.
So kh80 has an internal Ad-DA conversion right?
 
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