Question regarding technical parameters of LPs.

[watchnerd]

Put this on the platter:

View attachment 42401


Or this:
View attachment 42402

Those are sweet!

I was thinking of this:

 

[Wombat]

Those are sweet!

I was thinking of this:

I have always wondered how they tie-dyed vinyl?

 

[Robin L]

I've experienced the same thing, but I can't figure out what in the evolution of digital audio would account for it.

So I suspect I may be imagining it.

I think it's because the development of higher bit rates, higher frequency response cleans up the resolution for bog-standard Redbook. That's what the measurements look like too.

 

[Soniclife]

Those are sweet!

I was thinking of this:

Or go literal with the band of the same name.
http://store.futurismoinc.com/product/the-psychedelic-furs-br-pretty-in-pink-2x7-br-isn-t-she

 

[Soniclife]

I think it's because the development of higher bit rates, higher frequency response cleans up the resolution for bog-standard Redbook. That's what the measurements look like too.

I'm not following that, but noise has been reported several times to enhance spaciousness, so losing the noise floor from analogue tape seems possible.
I'd could also be a combination of factors, was a lot of other kit changed at the same time, driven by digital recording exposing problems?

 

[Robin L]

I'm not following that, but noise has been reported several times to enhance spaciousness, so losing the noise floor from analogue tape seems possible.
I'd could also be a combination of factors, was a lot of other kit changed at the same time, driven by digital recording exposing problems?

I think it's mostly the Digital gear cleaning up its act. Forgot to mention reduction of jitter as well. I'd throw in better electrical isolation, which would also reduce the effects of ac landing on the signal.

 

[watchnerd]

I'm not following that, but noise has been reported several times to enhance spaciousness, so losing the noise floor from analogue tape seems possible.
I'd could also be a combination of factors, was a lot of other kit changed at the same time, driven by digital recording exposing problems?

I think it might be related to better dither

 

[anmpr1]

I think it's mostly the Digital gear cleaning up its act. Forgot to mention reduction of jitter as well. I'd throw in better electrical isolation, which would also reduce the effects of ac landing on the signal.

Anent your reply to @Soniclife who wrote: ...noise has been reported several times to enhance spaciousness...

I recall a discussion I had with with the late Peter Aczel (The Audio Critic) about a particular 'dry or lifeless' sounding recording. I asked whether this 'dryness' could have been an artifact from the 'digital recording process'? He replied...

"Your [recording sounds] a bit sterile because [it was] made in Manhattan Center (New York), which is an acoustically rather dead venue. In 1989, Max Wilcox produced a wonderful-sounding recording of the Mahler 5th (Mehta/NY on Teldec, released 1990) in that same Manhattan Center. He added some very subtle artificial reverb, which is not at all perceptible as such but makes the sound come alive.

In a typical live setting one experiences many aural sounds not related to the instruments, per se. Recording technique can filter out those aural cues, and that might be a mistake. Closely miked instruments injected directly into the mixing board is probably not going to result in anything 'lifelike', because all the ambient stuff is missing. We are all familiar with those kind of 'technically perfect' recordings, that sound dead.

To compare, Bill Evans' 1961 Village Vanguard recordings capture a total ambiance; as a result, they are sounding very natural. From the perspective of sitting at one of the tables, listening to the trio, the sonic illusion is credible.

However, the venue was not as reverberant as the recording sonics suggest. In a JazzTimes article, engineer Jim Anderson described the room: ...big and quiet and fairly dead. When you put the mikes up you forget that you are in this cave in the middle of New York. It’s sort of like a womb that you enter.

David Baker described the venue as “dry”: Dead and dry are compliments; they refer to the relative absence of interfering room reflections and the fact that the sound can travel well.

The equipment for the Vanguard dates (produced by Orrin Keepnews with engineer Dave Jones): three mics (not sure type), mixed on an Ampex MX-35 tube mic/line mixer-preamp onto an Ampex 350-2 or 351-2 two-track running Scotch 111 at 15 ips.

Really, what makes a good recording is a combination of factors. But mostly it's the men responsible for seeing it through. One has to know what one is doing. You can have the latest and greatest modern digital recording gear, and still fall short of what was done in a bar, on analog tape, 60 years ago, if your skill is not good enough.

 

[Soniclife]

So a bunch of nois

One has to know what one is doing. You can have the latest and greatest modern digital recording gear, and still fall short of what was done in a bar, on analog tape, 60 years ago, if your skill is not good enough.

Very true, and easy to see that when a big change comes along like digital it can take a while to learn to optimise it, especially after decades of fighting analogue.

 

[Robin L]

Anent your reply to @Soniclife who wrote: ...noise has been reported several times to enhance spaciousness...

I recall a discussion I had with with the late Peter Aczel (The Audio Critic) about a particular 'dry or lifeless' sounding recording. I asked whether this 'dryness' could have been an artifact from the 'digital recording process'? He replied...

"Your [recording sounds] a bit sterile because [it was] made in Manhattan Center (New York), which is an acoustically rather dead venue. In 1989, Max Wilcox produced a wonderful-sounding recording of the Mahler 5th (Mehta/NY on Teldec, released 1990) in that same Manhattan Center. He added some very subtle artificial reverb, which is not at all perceptible as such but makes the sound come alive.

In a typical live setting one experiences many aural sounds not related to the instruments, per se. Recording technique can filter out those aural cues, and that might be a mistake. Closely miked instruments injected directly into the mixing board is probably not going to result in anything 'lifelike', because all the ambient stuff is missing. We are all familiar with those kind of 'technically perfect' recordings, that sound dead.

To compare, Bill Evans' 1961 Village Vanguard recordings capture a total ambiance; as a result, they are sounding very natural. From the perspective of sitting at one of the tables, listening to the trio, the sonic illusion is credible.

However, the venue was not as reverberant as the recording sonics suggest. In a JazzTimes article, engineer Jim Anderson described the room: ...big and quiet and fairly dead. When you put the mikes up you forget that you are in this cave in the middle of New York. It’s sort of like a womb that you enter.

David Baker described the venue as “dry”: Dead and dry are compliments; they refer to the relative absence of interfering room reflections and the fact that the sound can travel well.

The equipment for the Vanguard dates (produced by Orrin Keepnews with engineer Dave Jones): three mics (not sure type), mixed on an Ampex MX-35 tube mic/line mixer-preamp onto an Ampex 350-2 or 351-2 two-track running Scotch 111 at 15 ips.

Really, what makes a good recording is a combination of factors. But mostly it's the men responsible for seeing it through. One has to know what one is doing. You can have the latest and greatest modern digital recording gear, and still fall short of what was done in a bar, on analog tape, 60 years ago, if your skill is not good enough.

Yes, all true. When I was recording, I happened to be recording in some rooms with very different qualities of sound. Grace Cathedral can be a wonderful sounding venue for recording, it's terrible for the audience. Set up microphones relatively close, you get a clear, dry impression of the initial sound, but there's some fine hall reverberation behind it. If you're in the audience, it's all awash in reverb, with very little direct sound. You are more likely to hear someone shuffling in their seat than the music itself if you're sitting in the audience.

I listened to a lot of the Columbia recordings in their initial LP issue, then first time around on CD, then various remasters. Initially, they seemed to be derived from flat masters, later were tweaked with digital reverb of various flavors. The Bruno Walter/Columbia Symphony Orchestra [West Coast version, studio musicians and some L.A. Philharmonic players] of Schubert's C major Symphony initially had a fair level of hall sound, but the sound of the string section was further smoothed out with some digital reverb. Same with the Bernstein/NYPO recording of Beethoven's 7th Symphony: more full sound on the 20-bit CD remaster than the original, thinner sounding LP.

 

[watchnerd]

Frackin' MacOS update to Catalina has apparently broken Roon's ability to automatically see my Devialet Expert.

Grrrrr. No streaming in the living room till I fix it.

At least with vinyl I don't have to deal with software updates from different vendors breaking functionality.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Frackin' MacOS update to Catalina has apparently broken Roon's ability to automatically see my Devialet Expert.

Grrrrr. No streaming in the living room till I fix it.

At least with vinyl I don't have to deal with software updates from different vendors breaking functionality.

You don't with CDs either
It breaks Devialet Air too but not Spark.
One of the reasons I largely abandoned computer music was software updated too often and needing time I didn't wish to waste getting it going again.
I bought a drone with the idea of the occasional aerial photo excursion. In fact every time I wanted to use it in the first few months there was a software or firmware update which took so long I didn't bother to take it with me.
I have only used it to examine the gutters of my house and now don't bother with it at all.
I get grumpy about unnecessary change very quickly. It is the Asperger"s I suppose

 

[Robin L]

You don't with CDs either
It breaks Devialet Air too but not Spark.
One of the reasons I largely abandoned computer music was software updated too often and needing time I didn't wish to waste getting it going again.
I bought a drone with the idea of the occasional aerial photo excursion. In fact every time I wanted to use it in the first few months there was a software or firmware update which took so long I didn't bother to take it with me.
I have only used it to examine the gutters of my house and now don't bother with it at all.
I get grumpy about unnecessary change very quickly. It is the Asperger"s I suppose

My current M.O. is CD ripped to lossless files played back on a DAP. Have yet to get too involved with streaming in part because of encountering plenty of hang-ups with streamed music. Have the least hang-ups with files on a micro sd card, though there have been a few glitches from the sources used. But I'm noticing better sound on recordings I'm very familiar with as LPs:

I don't know how many LP copies of Kate & Anna McGarrigle's eponymous debut I've owned, had multiple copies of both the Warner's and Carthage releases. "Tell My Sister" was released soon after Kate died in 2010, included the eponymous debut and "Dancer With The Bruised Knees" along with early demos [very good]. I'm sure extra care was taken in this CD reissue, but still—I always though of that Debut album being a particularily good sounding LP, but there is so much more musical information on the CD remaster, it isn't funny. Particularly noticeable on the track that concluded side one, "Talk to Me of Mendocino", which I remember on LP as blurry and noisy, now with all parts clear, devoid of the smearing and noise I recall from the LP.

 

[watchnerd]

You don't with CDs either
It breaks Devialet Air too but not Spark.
One of the reasons I largely abandoned computer music was software updated too often and needing time I didn't wish to waste getting it going again.
I bought a drone with the idea of the occasional aerial photo excursion. In fact every time I wanted to use it in the first few months there was a software or firmware update which took so long I didn't bother to take it with me.
I have only used it to examine the gutters of my house and now don't bother with it at all.
I get grumpy about unnecessary change very quickly. It is the Asperger"s I suppose

Spark?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Spark?

Spark is the Devialet software for Phantoms.

 

[watchnerd]

Gwyneth Paltrow plays records on a (budget) turntable while she gets ready for the holidays with cocktails and hair:

 

[scott wurcer]

I have it on second person authority that the VP of RCA responsible for all the worshiped shaded dogs listened on a pull down one piece with ceramic cartridge.

 

[watchnerd]

I have it on second person authority that the VP of RCA responsible for all the worshiped shaded dogs listened on a pull down one piece with ceramic cartridge.

Wasn't that pretty typical for the era?

I guess a "hi fi" before 1957 or so would have been a spherical mono cart that wasn't ceramic.

 

[Fleurrose]

Thanks Wombat. The motto on the bottom of your posts:

"Einstein: If you can't describe it simply, you don't understand it well.
Wombat: Or you explanatory skills are deficient."

. . . applies to the RIAA technical paper. A little hard to decipher, with some math I'll never master.

However the "Mastering" info gets to the heart of it:

Depending on the master, some of, or all of these issues can occur when using a digital master for the vinyl cutting process:

• Varying degrees of distortion
• Skipping needles during playback
• Lacking dynamics
• An overall less pleasant listening experience
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I'll take some time with Sage Audio post, noting how the limits of the LP format determine mastering decisions. Additional information on the minimum distortion and limitations of the vertical element of a stereo groove are welcome.

On the up side, because the dynamic range of LPs is inherently less than some music, and being able to hear noise during the music is annoying, a certain amount of compression is used to raise the level of the quiet bits.

 

[Purité Audio]

Having smuggled this past my wife on Christmas Eve, I have just finished setting everything up, TT is a Sony Biotracer from 1979, cartridge is a modern Dynavector XX2, phon stage is also Dynavector, preamp is Benchmark HPA playing through the AES input ( set to analogue) of the Kii THREE/BXT.


Keith