Performance of Amps in Active Speakers

[Ron Texas]

And @Cosmik.

Thank you.

 

[Old Listener]

Best of both worlds is probably "externally active" with SOTA amps + DSP crossovers and corrections.

Except....

Almost nobody seems to do the "external" + "corrections" part.

The JBL M2 is architected that way. I believe the i-variants of the JBL 7-series are, too.

I'm sure there are more, but they seem few and far between.

For almost 20 years, I lived with 3-way active speakers with an external crossover and external amps that I chose and purchased. (Waveform Mach 17 speakers.) Way too many boxes, wires and complexity for me.

The 3-way active studio monitors with crossover and amps in the same box that I use now work just fine, thanks. (Dynaudio LYD48) Way simpler.

 

[MSNWatch]

After reading many responses I have reached some conclusions:

Chip amps used in the vast majority of active speakers don't measure well.
Even when used with passive speakers pro audio amplifiers with mediocre measurements sound great. This is because the distortion produced by speakers is at least an order of magnitude more than many of the pro audio amplifiers. It's nice to have a Benchmark amp, but not necessary.
Active monitors sound good both because extreme low distortion amplification is not necessary and also because DSP active crossovers allow for steeper slopes and EQ. It's not because of some magic synergy from "matching" the amp to the driver.

And actives will have more than sufficient power which is sometimes a problem with using low efficiency passives.

 

[jhaider]

Active monitors sound good both because extreme low distortion amplification is not necessary and also because DSP active crossovers allow for steeper slopes and EQ. It's not because of some magic synergy from "matching" the amp to the driver.

I think “matching” is part of it, but not in the sense audiophiles understand. By matching I mean carefully tailoring dynamic (often DSP) limiters to be subjectively masked but still protect the drivers. I can’t think of any other way a tiny thing such as KH80 could sound as good as it does even playing loudly.

 

[watchnerd]

For almost 20 years, I lived with 3-way active speakers with an external crossover and external amps that I chose and purchased. (Waveform Mach 17 speakers.) Way too many boxes, wires and complexity for me.

The 3-way active studio monitors with crossover and amps in the same box that I use now work just fine, thanks. (Dynaudio LYD48) Way simpler.

Full disclosure: I have a pair of LYD 5s.

So I can't get on my high-horse too much....

 

[Wombat]

Full disclosure: I have a pair of LYD 5s.

So I can't get on my high-horse too much....

You have a high-horse?

+ on the hyphen.

 

[Wombat]

And actives will have more than sufficient power which is sometimes a problem with using low efficiency passives.

Low efficiency passives. Add all the power that you please within limitations. Is that any different with actives?

 

[watchnerd]

You have a high-horse?

+ on the hyphen. View attachment 36928

Touche!

 

[watchnerd]

Low efficiency passives. Add all the power that you please within limitations. Is that any different with actives?

My Dynaudio Contour 20 have about 84 dB sensitivity, with "IEC Power handling" [what is that?] of 180W.

My Devialet amp is specced at:

POWER
2x440WRMS 6Ω
DISTORTION AT FULL POWER
0,00025%
DISTORTION AT 10W
0,0001%
SIGNAL-TO-NOISE RATIO
133dB
OUTPUT IMPEDANCE
0,001Ω
DAMPING FACTOR
8000

Should I really ditch my amp and speakers and go active?

Or is it better ROI to get better passives?

 

[GrimSurfer]

My Dynaudio Contour 20 have about 84 dB sensitivity, with "IEC Power handling" [what is that?] of 180W.

My Devialet amp is specced at:

POWER
2x440WRMS 6Ω
DISTORTION AT FULL POWER
0,00025%
DISTORTION AT 10W
0,0001%
SIGNAL-TO-NOISE RATIO
133dB
OUTPUT IMPEDANCE
0,001Ω
DAMPING FACTOR
8000

Should I really ditch my amp and speakers and go active?

Or is it better ROI to get better passives?

Ummm, passives. Hang onto anything with three zeros after the decimal point.

 

[Old Listener]

Full disclosure: I have a pair of LYD 5s.

So I can't get on my high-horse too much....

Your posts and my reply suggested a new thread titled "In search of good enough"

 

[digicidal]

Your posts and my reply suggested a new thread titled "In search of good enough"

I thought that was at least 90% of shopping for gear in any category. There will always be some laboratory equipment or specialist tools which will be objectively better in whatever metric... but will be utterly pointless in normal use (even by rabid enthusiasts).

Amir's APx555 would make for a horrid preamp... despite measuring better than any commercially available preamp.

 

[KSTR]

It's not because of some magic synergy from "matching" the amp to the driver.

Well, there are some forms of "matching" which do contribute significantly. The first is an adaptive output impedance profile (vs. frequency) which can reduce driver distortion significantly at times, and the second more important one is servo mechanisms of all kinds where some kind of motional sensor is used to control the amp, an extension of the feedback loop around the driver. These are relevant degrees of freedom that are missed by passive speakers and also by the majority of active approaches.

 

[KSTR]

By matching I mean carefully tailoring dynamic (often DSP) limiters to be subjectively masked but still protect the drivers.

Yes, elaborate soft clipping and dynamic limiting can easily fake some 10dB of dynamic range that isn't there. I've worked on those schemes (all analog) and found some are perceptually rather benign but rather complex and costly (well, all analog).

 

[watchnerd]

Well, there are some forms of "matching" which do contribute significantly. The first is an adaptive output impedance profile (vs. frequency) which can reduce driver distortion significantly at times, and the second more important one is servo mechanisms of all kinds where some kind of motional sensor is used to control the amp, an extension of the feedback loop around the driver. These are relevant degrees of freedom that are missed by passive speakers and also by the majority of active approaches.

While there are some exceptions (Kii), I don't see a lot fo monitors using servo controls, unlike subwoofers.

None of the active monitors I've owned had servo controls. Just ADCs, DSP crossovers + class D amps.

 

[KSTR]

Speakers with impedance profiling there are quite a few and true sensor-controlled ones as well, for decades now, but it seems to be mainly a central europe thing....

 

[q3cpma]

Best of both worlds is probably "externally active" with SOTA amps + DSP crossovers and corrections.
...
I'm sure there are more, but they seem few and far between.

The Genelec 1237 and 1238 have their electronics in a detachable, rack mountable box on the back. Seems like a perfect solution to me.

 

[Biblob]

Speakers with impedance profiling there are quite a few and true sensor-controlled ones as well, for decades now, but it seems to be mainly a central europe thing....

Could you name a few?

 

[Soniclife]

DIY seems to be reasonably common.

But out-of-the-box "externally active" seems rare.

Devialet made such an offering with Atohm, but I don't know if it's even made / sold any longer.

That's just a passive speaker using Sam, but the following is true active, and available.
https://kudosaudio.com/upgrade-to-active/
I wonder if their speakers don't suck when activated.

 

[Soniclife]

My Dynaudio Contour 20 have about 84 dB sensitivity, with "IEC Power handling" [what is that?] of 180W.

My Devialet amp is specced at:

POWER
2x440WRMS 6Ω
DISTORTION AT FULL POWER
0,00025%
DISTORTION AT 10W
0,0001%
SIGNAL-TO-NOISE RATIO
133dB
OUTPUT IMPEDANCE
0,001Ω
DAMPING FACTOR
8000

Should I really ditch my amp and speakers and go active?

Or is it better ROI to get better passives?

Did you upgrade, I thought you had the 400?