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Snake oil and the differences between LP pressings?

Frank Dernie

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I was a big Grace Slick fan and bought an LP she did with "The Great Society" (her first band) which had the early "White Rabbit" version on it.
I loved that record but lent it to a friend who brought it back looking like it had been used as an ash tray and more or less unlistenable :(
 

MRC01

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Worse, buying a recording that interests you only to find when you file it that you already own it. I have done that several times too :( mainly used CDs though.
You know you've got the bug when you find 3 different pressings/versions of the same record in your collection, 1 of which you forgot you had, and spend the next several minutes pondering which to listen to, because they all sound different but none is the best all around, so you like them all and don't really have a favorite.
 

MRC01

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I was a big Grace Slick fan and bought an LP she did with "The Great Society" (her first band) which had the early "White Rabbit" version on it.
I loved that record but lent it to a friend who brought it back looking like it had been used as an ash tray and more or less unlistenable :(
Yeah, who among us hasn't had that happen!
 

watchnerd

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Robin L

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captain paranoia

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I've done it, too

I've done it too. But I opted for a Psion 3A to record my purchases. It's now a simple text file on my phone, plus a few AWK scripts to process it into other formats, including a simple html table...

I do have a discogs account, but I'm not sure if I can face the task of unboxing and scanning or searching for the 2500+ CDs in my collection...
 

MattHooper

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I've done it, too. That's why I have my entire collection now in Discogs:

https://www.discogs.com/user/watchnerd/collection/covers?sort_by=artists_sort&sort_order=asc

Yup, me too. And for similar reasons.

It was a slog inputting my entire vinyl collection. But once finished it's been very easy to add new ones. Most of the albums I acquire are off discogs so it's a mere button press to add the vinyl album to my discogs collection. The bar code scanner on the iphone app helps too.
 

watchnerd

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I've done it too. But I opted for a Psion 3A to record my purchases. It's now a simple text file on my phone, plus a few AWK scripts to process it into other formats, including a simple html table...

I do have a discogs account, but I'm not sure if I can face the task of unboxing and scanning or searching for the 2500+ CDs in my collection...

The Discogs app has a barcode scanner.

No need for a Psion these days.
 

watchnerd

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Yup, me too. And for similar reasons.

It was a slog inputting my entire vinyl collection. But once finished it's been very easy to add new ones. Most of the albums I acquire are off discogs so it's a mere button press to add the vinyl album to my discogs collection. The bar code scanner on the iphone app helps too.

In the process of adding to Discogs, I also used it as an excuse to curate / trim down my collection.

I've got about 200 LPs now ready to turn in for store credit if I finally get a free day to do so.
 

captain paranoia

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The Discogs app has a barcode scanner.

I know (as I said, I have it installed for checking out things I find). But going through my collection will still take a lot of effort, that I really can't be bothered to expend.

The Psion is relegated to air-gapped password duties these days, as my android phone with 256GB uSD card is significantly more functional...
 
D

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Just ran across this site:

https://www.better-records.com/gdept.aspx?dept_id=14-015-034

These guys stockpile, clean and play dozens of copies of all the big records and sell the ones they think sound the best for big dough-- for instance, $250 for a copy of the 2nd BS&T record, which is in the dollar bin everywhere else.

Since a record is a unique physical object, there are obviously differences from one to the nex,t. It makes sense to me that a first pressing that was made when the plates were brand new would sound cleaner, maybe. And I am sure there are differences in mastering runs, batches of materials, etc. But these guys have a tiered system with all this lingo, etc.-- sounds like there could be a high marketing wizard quotient involved here.

Folks who are into this scene swear that they can play fourteen copies of 'Katy Lied' and then the fifteenth will just have this sound from another world.
So you get pressings with a certain number scratched into the dead wax going for $1000, etc.

Has anyone here ever really gotten into this and heard/not heard the difference?

I used to have 2 different pressings of FRAGILE by YES. One was a British Pressing and the other was Japanese. The Brit one was very open. You could hear the air and instruments were spacious. The one from Japan was the complete opposite. I should have held onto it just for comparison.
 

anmpr1

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I used to have 2 different pressings of FRAGILE by YES. One was a British Pressing and the other was Japanese. The Brit one was very open. You could hear the air and instruments were spacious. The one from Japan was the complete opposite. I should have held onto it just for comparison.
Probably also depends on the stamper. If you get one of the first LPs to be pressed it might be better than the last, before they discard it for a new one. Most Japanese imports I've owned were decent quality. Euro pressings were generally better than US product.

Back in the day, especially during the Carter years (oil embargo), big label records were horrible. CBS was derided by record fans as standing for 'Cost Before Sound'. DGG released some really bad quality plastic (I'm talking pops and clicks, not their multi-miking which was always questionable). RCA had the miserable Dynagroove (which was supposed to cure 'tracking error'--or something) and came out with really thin floppy records that were supposed to be the cure for warps. But even before that, in the '50s and '60s, really first rate LPs were not common.

Prior to that, with 78s it didn't matter much because they all sounded bad. LOL

Ironically, in many ways digital recording was the impetus for record companies to get their LP act together. LPs were competing against silver discs, and you saw the rise of small cottage outfits such as Sheffield and other Direct to Disc, half speed mastering and DMM (Direct Metal Mastering).
 

Frank Dernie

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I used to have 2 different pressings of FRAGILE by YES. One was a British Pressing and the other was Japanese. The Brit one was very open. You could hear the air and instruments were spacious. The one from Japan was the complete opposite. I should have held onto it just for comparison.
There is also wear.
Old well looked after LPs could look pristine but if played with a poor quality or worn stylus for years could be quite worn.
Not all music lovers are hifi enthusiasts with good quality record players.
 

anmpr1

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There is also wear. Old well looked after LPs could look pristine but if played with a poor quality or worn stylus for years could be quite worn.
Ineed. Running an LP, any LP that doesn't have gross surface scratches, through a cleaning machine, or even washing it by hand, will make it look new. So a visual inspection is not always helpful.

On the other hand, many old records from the '60s were played using spherical diamonds that didn't reach deep--because that's all there was back then. Those diamonds only contacted a small portion of the groove. If the entire groove isn't damaged you may get mileage out of old LPs by using a deeper diamond cut, like the Ortofon Gyger/Replicant, Shibata, Van den Hul, Adamant-Namiki Microridge etc.

Below is an informative link discussing some different diamond shapes and how they fit in the record groove. From Adamant, who produces a lot of the diamonds used in various cartridges.

https://www.ad-na.com/en/product/jewel/product/stylus.html
 

Robin L

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Ineed. Running an LP, any LP that doesn't have gross surface scratches, through a cleaning machine, or even washing it by hand, will make it look new. So a visual inspection is not always helpful.

On the other hand, many old records from the '60s were played using spherical diamonds that didn't reach deep--because that's all there was back then. Those diamonds only contacted a small portion of the groove. If the entire groove isn't damaged you may get mileage out of old LPs by using a deeper diamond cut, like the Ortofon Gyger/Replicant, Shibata, Van den Hul, Adamant-Namiki Microridge etc.

Below is an informative link discussing some different diamond shapes and how they fit in the record groove. From Adamant, who produces a lot of the diamonds used in various cartridges.

https://www.ad-na.com/en/product/jewel/product/stylus.html
But the opposite is also true. I had a Dinah Washington white label promo that was horribly worn. The Shure 97 cartridge playback was horrible. But the Shure M44 cartridge produced much less audible wear. The same problem with LPs---nothing is consistent.
 

anmpr1

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I had a Dinah Washington white label promo that was horribly worn. The Shure 97 cartridge playback was horrible. But the Shure M44 cartridge produced much less audible wear. The same problem with LPs---nothing is consistent.
You have that right, for sure (nice pun, eh?). There are so many variables that sometimes it's difficult to pinpoint. I have found that the M97x can sound very good, but have also experienced some QC issues with the model (I own 3 of them--bought when I first learned Shure was leaving town on the midnight train).

FWIW, in my main system I am currently using an M97x stylus in a V15x body (Dual 704 turntable). The stylus matches, and and you can't get a Shure sourced Microridge anymore (Jico sells a lot of different V15 variants, but I don't have any experience with them).

The M44 and variants was Shure's long-standing workhorse. It was my first MM cartridge. Prior to that I was using a ceramic flip-over needle in an entry level Garrard changer. The Shure was so much better--like 'lifting a veil' as the high-end priests say. LOL
 

Robin L

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You have that right, for sure (nice pun, eh?). There are so many variables that sometimes it's difficult to pinpoint. I have found that the M97x can sound very good, but have also experienced some QC issues with the model (I own 3 of them--bought when I first learned Shure was leaving town on the midnight train).

FWIW, in my main system I am currently using an M97x stylus in a V15x body (Dual 704 turntable). The stylus matches, and and you can't get a Shure sourced Microridge anymore (Jico sells a lot of different V15 variants, but I don't have any experience with them).

The M44 and variants was Shure's long-standing workhorse. It was my first MM cartridge. Prior to that I was using a ceramic flip-over needle in an entry level Garrard changer. The Shure was so much better--like 'lifting a veil' as the high-end priests say. LOL
The M44 series was really for the DJs, big emphasis on what was happening mid-bass to lower treble, with a notable ability to stick to the groove, no matter the condition of the record or the circumstances in which the record was being played, tolerated cueing/scratching. A practical choice when "the Absolute Sound" wasn't an issue anyway. The M97x sounded better with pristine discs, the M44 better with less than pristine discs.

Two things, first, the best cartridge I owned was an Audio Technica high output moving coil with a micro-line stylus mounted on an Ittok/Linn LP-12, properly set-up and aligned. And still I noticed the energy in the groove fading as the stylus was reaching the deadwax. I have to work from the assumption that the folks that can tolerate this obvious distortion have developed ways of listening around obvious flaws. I know that's true for surface noise and, to a limited extent, eccentric discs. I spend more time listening to myself play guitar these days than to recorded music, amplified enough to produce a lot of sustain and echo, precisely the sound that LPs screw up. Back when I was playing LPs, I had a guitar that couldn't be properly tuned. Things have changed. I've got needledrops among the files on my DAP, can always hear the vinyl artifacts.

The other thing being that people transferring really antique discs, like early acoustics [though this applies to all 78s, more or less], need a lot of different stylus types and shapes in order to get the best results from highly variable and often damaged/worn discs. Same applies to speed regulation as well, many early discs being off as regards speed. I was attempting to learn to play the Charlie Poole classic "Milwaukee Blues", but couldn't find a key where it it would play on my standard tuned Martin. Took the digital file, reduced speed a semitone, turned out to be originally in plain vanilla C. It was one of Charlie Poole's last recordings, the producer probably sped up the playback so he wouldn't sound so old.
 
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Robin L

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Way before my time.

I'd never heard of them, and looking on the webs, it looks like their last store closed when I was 16 years old.
I worked there for a year, 1977-1978. Got a lot of Charlie Parker 78s, EPs and LPs there, including Verve LPs from Japan and Dial LPs from the UK, original Dial and Savoy 78s, the rare 12" Comet Red Norvo sides. Not to mention a whole lot of other jazz. Probably my "peak vinyl" era.
 

anmpr1

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The M44 series was really for the DJs...

It ended that way, but early on I recall the unit being sort of a low entry level MM cartridge intended for the general market. A step above the workhorse M3D. I could be mistaken... it was a long time ago. I recall owning an M44, M55, an M75 and later the V15 III. The V15 came with a Dual 1229, as a package. I then 'graduated' to the MC scene, for better or no. Then it was a V15 V MR, and later the V15xMR, which IMO was the best of the bunch.

Somewhere I recently read (on-line but I don't recall where) an interview with a Shure engineer-marketing guy. He said the company was closely held, and that entry back into the phono market was unlikely. Of course my opinion is meaningless, but I wish they would reconsider.

PS: I recently refurbed a Dual 704. The original V15 III cartridge was included, and appears to be pristine. During the mid to late '70s Dual had a deal with Shure, selling integrated units--at least in the US. After that Dual went with Ortofon, which IMO was a mistake inasmuch as the so-called Dual ULM arm was widely viewed as mated to a particular cartridge brand that was not only expensive, but in many minds not as good as other offerings. Dual soon went belly up after that, a casualty of better quality Japanese turntables (at the price point) and digital.
 
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